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Feminism: Sex & gender discussions

And so it starts

203 replies

MimiSunshine · 27/09/2023 17:16

I cant accurately describe my emotions right now.
sad
fuming
disbelief

my primary aged niece has just ran a race in a, mainly for fun, but they do get 1st, 2nd, 3rd and so on positions, inter-school event.

She’s utterly convinced that 1st place out of easily, 40+ girls went to a male child.

now I was too busy watching her and a friends child running so didn’t pay attention to the other kids but I could hear one of the other parents asking ‘was this a mixed race, I thought it was girls only?’

then my niece comes up and immediately says that a boy won, my friends child was also saying the same thing.

one of the mums went and asked an official about it and they told her that they’d asked the school the child was from and they’d been told it was a girl.

my niece is absolutely insistent that it was a boy.

I think overall I’m feeling sad that those girls have already encountered this situation and a) lost a place in the rankings
b) are being actively told to ignore their instincts

although my brother and I both told them that we believed them and no it wasn’t fair.

OP posts:
Rudderneck · 27/09/2023 23:03

I used to be mistaken for a boy a lot too, up until I was about 9.

That's not to say these kids were wrong. You can often tell, even with pre-adolescent kids. Sometimes even with babies you can make a guess.

But it isn't as reliable as it is with older people.As the number of adult women who have had the experience of being mistaken for a boy when they were young shows.

I don't really understand why anyone is disputing this, even if they've never noticed it themselves.

TrailingLoellia · 27/09/2023 23:30

I was also mistaken for a boy constantly from very young age all the way into adulthood. Children, adults- all mistook me for a boy.

I have a ‘handsome’ face.

I was a tomboy and almost all my friends were boys. I had short hair (above the ears and spiked), and hated skirts/dresses so was always in trousers or shorts. I would be with the boys on the playground, sitting with them on sports days, and even as a teenager was viewed as ‘one of the boys’ which gave me no end of grief as I had a crush on a close friend but he didn’t see me as a girl…

Even the exam invigilator mistook me for a boy at one of my A level exams- I was 17. I was bit by a dog when cycling and the owner mistook me for a teen boy- I was 26!

beastlyslumber · 28/09/2023 08:40

I don't really understand why anyone is disputing this, even if they've never noticed it themselves.

Because it's being used as a way to invalidate the experience and undermine the words of the girls who had their race stolen by a boy.

The whole 'it might be a girl and you can't tell, you shouldn't judge' is how boys and men are destroying women and girls' sports. Women and girls should not have to suck it up in dread of accidentally wronging a female in pursuit of protecting female sports and spaces. That's just another way for males to sneak in without challenge.

Exactly this.

Signalbox · 28/09/2023 09:33

Because it's being used as a way to invalidate the experience and undermine the words of the girls who had their race stolen by a boy.

So we should perpetuate the lie that you can always tell just in case we undermine someone’s sports day story on the internet?

PegasusReturns · 28/09/2023 09:46

The vast majority of females correctly sex males the vast majority of times. As with all rules there are exceptions most of them seem to be on this thread Hmm but what is more likely:

a) a girl who is adamant that she correctly sexed a child she spent time in close proximity to, is in fact wrong

or

b) a school are pandering to inclusivity of boy feels and gaslighting all involved.

if you believe the answer is a) you are not paying attention.

beastlyslumber · 28/09/2023 10:12

Signalbox · 28/09/2023 09:33

Because it's being used as a way to invalidate the experience and undermine the words of the girls who had their race stolen by a boy.

So we should perpetuate the lie that you can always tell just in case we undermine someone’s sports day story on the internet?

No. We should accept the word of girls who were there and who clearly could tell the child was a boy, instead of perpetuating the idea that you can't tell the difference between boys and girls and trying to derail a thread about a boy stealing a race from girls.

Whatwouldscullydo · 28/09/2023 10:16

Even babies can tell men from women cant they?

I trust these kids know. Akd what they need is the adult to believe them. Not to be gaslit into thinking they are wrong or unkind etc this is how children are getting < insert word that also applies to what you do with dogs and horses > into accepting this shit which is leading them to be in danger and have fewer opportunities.

Iwasafool · 28/09/2023 10:17

beastlyslumber · 28/09/2023 10:12

No. We should accept the word of girls who were there and who clearly could tell the child was a boy, instead of perpetuating the idea that you can't tell the difference between boys and girls and trying to derail a thread about a boy stealing a race from girls.

So explain why some of us have been misgendered? It happened to me lots of times as a child and teenager, not really as an adult but for some it goes on through life.

Are we wrong, if some kid decides I'm a man I have to accept that? Where does that leave my children, do they have no mother now on the word of some random child?

Signalbox · 28/09/2023 10:18

PegasusReturns · 28/09/2023 09:46

The vast majority of females correctly sex males the vast majority of times. As with all rules there are exceptions most of them seem to be on this thread Hmm but what is more likely:

a) a girl who is adamant that she correctly sexed a child she spent time in close proximity to, is in fact wrong

or

b) a school are pandering to inclusivity of boy feels and gaslighting all involved.

if you believe the answer is a) you are not paying attention.

You don’t have to look very far to see that people get it wrong…

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12190753/amp/Grandfather-68-wrongly-accuses-girls-nine-trans-fourth-grade-shot-event.html

The fact is the trust is gone and that is a bed thing.

The fact is that schools are probably trying to surreptitiously attempting to enter boys into the girls races. This is also bad.

The fact is people sometimes mistake girls for boys and that can lead to upset if you are being accused of cheating when you are not cheating. That is bad.

All these things are true and I’m not going to pretend otherwise just to suit some black and white narrative.

Grandpa wrongly accuses girl, 9, of being trans at school sports event

Josef Tesar and his wife who emigrated to Canada from Czechoslovakia in the 1980s, were watching their granddaughter compete in the event at the Apple Bowl in Kelowna.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12190753/amp/Grandfather-68-wrongly-accuses-girls-nine-trans-fourth-grade-shot-event.html

Iwasafool · 28/09/2023 10:20

beastlyslumber · 28/09/2023 08:40

I don't really understand why anyone is disputing this, even if they've never noticed it themselves.

Because it's being used as a way to invalidate the experience and undermine the words of the girls who had their race stolen by a boy.

The whole 'it might be a girl and you can't tell, you shouldn't judge' is how boys and men are destroying women and girls' sports. Women and girls should not have to suck it up in dread of accidentally wronging a female in pursuit of protecting female sports and spaces. That's just another way for males to sneak in without challenge.

Exactly this.

It isn't about invalidating it is about some people being so arrogant that they can decide you aren't the sex that you are. I've given birth to 4 children so someone deciding I'm male is ridiculous. What kids need to know is they don't know everything.

Iwasafool · 28/09/2023 10:21

PegasusReturns · 28/09/2023 09:46

The vast majority of females correctly sex males the vast majority of times. As with all rules there are exceptions most of them seem to be on this thread Hmm but what is more likely:

a) a girl who is adamant that she correctly sexed a child she spent time in close proximity to, is in fact wrong

or

b) a school are pandering to inclusivity of boy feels and gaslighting all involved.

if you believe the answer is a) you are not paying attention.

So you accept females get it wrong. So is it possible that this child got it wrong? Are her feelings more important than the girl she is accusing of being a boy?

beastlyslumber · 28/09/2023 10:25

So explain why some of us have been misgendered?

Start your own thread if that's what you want to talk about.

It's very, very clear from OP what happened in this case, and it's NOT you being misgendered as a child.

The actual fuckery on this thread is ridiculous. So sorry for yourselves that you got mistook for a boy that you think you should talk shit about girls and act like what happened couldn't possibly have happened. Get over yourselves, seriously.

Iwasafool · 28/09/2023 10:27

Froodwithatowel · 27/09/2023 20:45

The whole 'it might be a girl and you can't tell, you shouldn't judge' is how boys and men are destroying women and girls' sports. Women and girls should not have to suck it up in dread of accidentally wronging a female in pursuit of protecting female sports and spaces. That's just another way for males to sneak in without challenge.

Prior to there being deception, no one would have thought twice about whether a girl was just a girl with an unusual presentation which is fine, or whether everyone is lying and pulling a fast one by gaslighting that a boy is a girl.

I would be asking the race organisers, to confirm this is a single sex race and that biological girls only are competing.

Edited

Just stop and think for one minute how this must have felt to that little girl. Adults and kids speculating on her sex, her teachers being questioned.

The officials did ask the girl's school and they confirmed she was a girl. What more do you want.

Iwasafool · 28/09/2023 10:28

beastlyslumber · 28/09/2023 10:25

So explain why some of us have been misgendered?

Start your own thread if that's what you want to talk about.

It's very, very clear from OP what happened in this case, and it's NOT you being misgendered as a child.

The actual fuckery on this thread is ridiculous. So sorry for yourselves that you got mistook for a boy that you think you should talk shit about girls and act like what happened couldn't possibly have happened. Get over yourselves, seriously.

It is exactly the point unless you don't want a discussion you just want people to agree with you.

If you say it isn't possible for a child to be misgendered than it is pretty obvious that people who have been misgendered are going to say it happens.

PegasusReturns · 28/09/2023 10:50

So you accept females get it wrong. So is it possible that this child got it wrong? Are her feelings more important than the girl she is accusing of being a boy?

of course I accept females can get it wrong. The exception creates the rule. It’s rare and usually only happens in passing and/or from a distance rather than where any period of time is spent.

The problem here is that society has allowed this potential for ambiguity to fester. Ten years ago it was a given that girls could compete fairly against other girls.

is your position that no girl should ever be able to challenge their belief that there is a male in their space? Whether that’s a race, a toilet or anything else? That seems frankly dangerous

Iwasafool · 28/09/2023 10:54

PegasusReturns · 28/09/2023 10:50

So you accept females get it wrong. So is it possible that this child got it wrong? Are her feelings more important than the girl she is accusing of being a boy?

of course I accept females can get it wrong. The exception creates the rule. It’s rare and usually only happens in passing and/or from a distance rather than where any period of time is spent.

The problem here is that society has allowed this potential for ambiguity to fester. Ten years ago it was a given that girls could compete fairly against other girls.

is your position that no girl should ever be able to challenge their belief that there is a male in their space? Whether that’s a race, a toilet or anything else? That seems frankly dangerous

Edited

You might feel differently if you are the victim of misgendering. Why should that child or her school have to justify her entry in the race to random people who are so sure they know more about her than she knows herself?

The problem isn't caused by a little girl who looks like a boy. If my child ran over complaining about another child I'd tell them to be quiet. The people organising the event can police entries, it isn't the business of a child to be making these decisions and causing upset and embarrassment to another child.

beastlyslumber · 28/09/2023 11:15

If you say it isn't possible for a child to be misgendered than it is pretty obvious that people who have been misgendered are going to say it happens.

I don't think anyone said it's not possible? Just that it is extremely unlikely to be what's happened in this case, and going on about it is a derail from the actual point of the thread.

You might feel differently if you are the victim of misgendering. Why should that child or her school have to justify her entry in the race to random people who are so sure they know more about her than she knows herself?

Get over yourself. You're acting like it's impossible for a boy to steal a girl's race when we know this happens all the time and girls are told to ignore the evidence of their own eyes.

beastlyslumber · 28/09/2023 11:21

of course I accept females can get it wrong. The exception creates the rule. It’s rare and usually only happens in passing and/or from a distance rather than where any period of time is spent.

Exactly. I too have been 'misgendered' plenty of times but then when people get closer, hear my voice, see my face properly they can tell. I was 'misgendered' as a child, too, because I usually hung around with my brothers and their friends, so I was one of the boys... until they got a bit closer when it became completely obvious I was a girl.

I'd maybe have more sympathy with this misgendering idea if we were talking about toddlers. But at 9 years old there's no reason to think that children who are in close proximity and talking to one another wouldn't be able to tell a boy from a girl. Especially when the child attends one of the schools and so is actually known to many of the other kids there.

The fuckery on this thread is so obviously intended to discredit girls and derail the thread. It's shameful, really.

Signalbox · 28/09/2023 11:26

It's very, very clear from OP what happened in this case

No it isn’t clear which is why people have asked clarifying questions.

beastlyslumber · 28/09/2023 11:37

Signalbox · 28/09/2023 11:26

It's very, very clear from OP what happened in this case

No it isn’t clear which is why people have asked clarifying questions.

Asking clarifying questions is one thing.

Banging on about how sad it is that you were 'misgendered' as a child and how that must mean OP is mistaken and the girls couldn't possibly know what they're talking about... is something else. Fuckery.

MagpiePi · 28/09/2023 11:42

From the original post,

one of the mums went and asked an official about it and they told her that they’d asked the school the child was from and they’d been told it was a girl.

I doubt that an enquiry about the sex of every single child running in the race was made, just this one. You can only assume that there was some doubt that it was a girl to begin with, but of course, gender feelz trump biological reality and everyone, but mostly women and girls who are affected detrimentally, is supposed to deny their own senses and just #bekind.
It makes me so angry.

Signalbox · 28/09/2023 12:05

Fuckery

AKA debate on a public forum.

NeighbourhoodWatchPotholeDivision · 28/09/2023 12:17

Iwasafool

Stop projecting. Just stop.

As for this bit, never did anyone select a more appropriate username.

The problem isn't caused by a little girl who looks like a boy. If my child ran over complaining about another child I'd tell them to be quiet. The people organising the event can police entries, it isn't the business of a child to be making these decisions and causing upset and embarrassment to another child.

You'd tell them to shut up and be silent in case they caused someone else embarrassment. Just in case. That is exactly how this societal rot has spread.

If that doesn't give you pause, consider this. That attitude is exactly why I stayed quiet the first time I was sexually assaulted by an adult man in public, age 11. I didn't want to cause upset and embarrassment to another person. I told myself he must be doing it by accident, and I felt proud of myself for being considerate and not embarrassing him.

With hindsight, he wasn't pressing his crotch to my arse by accident. Especially as when I moved away, he moved after me so he could resume the contact.

We need to stop telling girls to keep the peace.

OllyBJolly · 28/09/2023 13:52

I don't like the word "misgendered" so I won't use it.

I was often called "son" and even now might be referred to as "sir" if I'm wearing my anorak and beanie.. It's an irritation - no more than that. I only have to speak and the person will know they got it wrong. I'm not claiming a woman's place in a job, in a race, in a ballot box. I'm not literally violated.

Males and boys taking the place of women and girls - unfair and wrong.

Helleofabore · 28/09/2023 14:17

NeighbourhoodWatchPotholeDivision · 28/09/2023 12:17

Iwasafool

Stop projecting. Just stop.

As for this bit, never did anyone select a more appropriate username.

The problem isn't caused by a little girl who looks like a boy. If my child ran over complaining about another child I'd tell them to be quiet. The people organising the event can police entries, it isn't the business of a child to be making these decisions and causing upset and embarrassment to another child.

You'd tell them to shut up and be silent in case they caused someone else embarrassment. Just in case. That is exactly how this societal rot has spread.

If that doesn't give you pause, consider this. That attitude is exactly why I stayed quiet the first time I was sexually assaulted by an adult man in public, age 11. I didn't want to cause upset and embarrassment to another person. I told myself he must be doing it by accident, and I felt proud of myself for being considerate and not embarrassing him.

With hindsight, he wasn't pressing his crotch to my arse by accident. Especially as when I moved away, he moved after me so he could resume the contact.

We need to stop telling girls to keep the peace.

Flowers neighbourhood

It is so remarkable to see someone advising women to shut down a child who wishes to question the fairness of their activity. That the child may have a very legitimate concern and point, but they would be told to 'be quiet'. To effectively 'suck it up' and 'be kind'.

So much compassion on display. Oh... that is right. Compassion now has a completely opposite meaning attached to it as well these days. And 'compassion' only goes one direction, and not even towards the child who has legitimate concerns.

Plus the sentiment that 'the organisation know what they are doing, so why question it' is remarkable.

As quite a number of posters have now pointed out, there is little trust in this situation. And that the school representative that asked the question could well have received a now acceptable 'lie'. That official would not be able to respond in any other way than they did otherwise they would have 'outed' that child.

But apparently, children who feel that there is an issue should STFU, just as women should. Good to know that compassion is for all... oh... wait...

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