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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Roisin Murphy

1000 replies

WarriorN · 24/08/2023 06:38

Is it true? Did did say this?

"Puberty blockers ARE FUCKED! Big pharma laughing all the way to the bank!"

Roisin Murphy
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140
ArabeIIaScott · 11/09/2023 14:00

Sexism is the sea we swim in. For a lot of the time, it barely registers. Lots of men are utterly unaware; lots of women are utterly innured.

Female socialisation as well as male socialisation are very powerful, and lots of that is not conscious. So signals often get misconstrued. And misconstrued differently in different media - text/speech/body language etc.

But Roisin's 'cancellation' looks like a lot of misogynistic men wetting themselves over the chance to tell her how disappointed they are with her. They don't like the thought a woman might step out of line. And clearly they think they owned her, because they listen to her music.

ArabeIIaScott · 11/09/2023 14:02

It's worth looking at the comments on social media with this lens. Count the beards lining up to admonish her.

It's actually almost amusing.

Biffology · 11/09/2023 14:16

@ArabeIIaScott

We're in agreement on the misogyny but I'm interested to understand what drives it.. You might respond to me about something by saying 'What would you know, you're a bloke ?'

And I'd have to agree, statement-of-fact. No offence taken on my part. These lines have been getting blurred and they need drawing back in, for all our sakes.

I suspect the response is to do with wanting to know how it feels to be a woman. Jo Bartosch has written on this and I must say I was taken aback at the idea that there's some kind of fetish involved here but I suspect she's got a point.

Biffology · 11/09/2023 14:23

It's a pity because there is a place for men in the audience - I'm not suggesting we go around like it's the Victorian era but I do think it is validating to say 'The message is universalist but, simultaneously, it's a woman's approach' and leave it - precisely and consistently - at that.

Biffology · 11/09/2023 14:25

@ArabeIIaScott

I think they're a &%#?@ disgrace.

ArabeIIaScott · 11/09/2023 14:31

Depends on the man, I suppose. And I have to be careful on here because both generalisations and over-specific comments can be deleted.

You seem to be mixing up genderism with transgenderism? There are obvious overlaps, but they are not completely the same.

Firstly many/most of those using 'gender' issues as a way to exercise their misogyny aren't 'trans' people. It's just that 'gender' is a handy way they get to berate/attack/smear/hit back at women. Some of them 'identify' as feminists - yes, they co-opted feminism, too.

Look at the angry antifa men attcking women on the 'let women speak' events. Assaulting women. Sheer common or garden misogyny in black bloc. Not very mysterious.

Then you're asking about 'feeling like a woman'. Well, 'transgenderism' includes auto gynephilia (look into Ray Blanchard), yes, fetishisation and paraphilias exist, and are often mixed up in all this. See also 'queering' of social norms, queer theory, etc.

WarriorN · 11/09/2023 14:52

StephanieSuperpowers · 11/09/2023 13:32

It's just a shame that there's such a dearth of all in spaces for this discussion to happen. Even on Mumsnet, which is the only place I know of where openly GC commentary is allowed, it's only under the feminist umbrella. I'd be very happy to see everyone from all views have a space to talk.

Technically it's now the "sex and gender" topic but we can't not talk about <all this> without discussing feminism and feminist issues, or rather, women's rights.

Biff, this used to be FWR - feminism and women's rights (tho I'm a bit confused these days at what the difference between those is or was.) there were 4 areas on mn for different feminist issues. One was reading iirc. So essentially it was a women's space.

It all got condensed to women's rights chat and sex and gender topic, (with much up roar) though I think many ignore the other one.

The point was that many women on mumsnet (and not all are mums) didn't want to discuss or see anything relating to trans at all but wanted feminist discourse.

In reality it's very hard to separate the two. Roisin's screenshot in the op illustrates is as she talks about a medical issue relating to sex and gender but asks not to be called a feminist slur in doing so.

I suppose a "sex and gender topic" actually doesn't have any feminist implications at first glance. But it's women's rights that are most affected by the area.

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Biffology · 11/09/2023 14:53

@ArabeIIaScott

'Firstly many/most of those using 'gender' issues as a way to exercise their misogyny aren't 'trans' people. It's just that 'gender' is a handy way they get to berate/attack/smear/hit back at women. Some of them 'identify' as feminists - yes, they co-opted feminism, too.'

Food for thought, there.. What's standing out is the notion of co-opting . We've just seen a situation where Transparent has, actually very helpfully, seen me posting away, thought 'he's trying to take over' and stepped in to put an end to that. Hopefully, I've managed to explain why I'm here and I won't repeat myself.

But these guys appear to want to undermine what women say and do, in their own defence against all that stuff that feminism is well-known for identifying. Hopefully, I've made it clear enough that the 'everyone welcome' argument is meant to be the common-ground, if you will - the human foundations : tolerance, freedom and so on, that feminist arguments, amongst others, can build upon.

WarriorN · 11/09/2023 14:54

(Sorry, 'feminism: chat.' And 'feminism: sex and gender discussions.' Was briefly debate but we said No Thankyou Grin)

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RealityFan · 11/09/2023 15:04

Men have always dominated the Left, other than feminism. Look at the Labour and union movement of the post War period. Beer and sandwiches at No.10, broken bones and skulls at Orgreave in the 80s. We know who did the shouting at picket lines and in negotiations, and put the boot in at demos. Men. And who made the sandwiches and brought the beer in, and who tended to those striking miners. Women.

Even the left anti capitalist movements in Europe, Baader Meinhof etc. Yes, there were women involved, but it was the men making strategic decisions.

So the Left has always been about the men. The only place the little ladies were allowed to have some autonomy was feminist concerns, and the fight for equality in divorce, outlawing marital rape, legalising of abortion and availability of the Pill, workplace rights and equal pay, thence moves to get rid of Page Three, was left to women. At best, many Left men at least appeared to support.

But I suspect there were many men on the Left who hated even that amount of independence, however irrefutable it was. And many men wanted to get their own back here too.

Well, as the socialist dream in the West died with Gorbachev and the fall of Berlin Wall, the Left coopted into capitalism, to find new battles to justify its existence. No more class battle and proper Left redistribution, now it was the mutation of this traditional class battle to intersectional minority interests...we know about all the others, PoC, gay, disabled, but the one that very few ever thought would erupt as a major schism, trans rights, has predominated.

A substack I read posits that the alpha males in the Labour movement (Brown, Salmond, Kinnock, Wilson, Scargill, Crow etc) have been replaced by the beta males, those who are no previous time would have been at the front line of negotiating with the capitalists of the 50s to 80s, would have been seen dead at a violent demo.

But as the Left in the West at least has become a series of tick boxes, badges, identity gripes, and hugely resistant to any objectivism or judgement calls, amoral so to speak, and values organisation and herd instincts, it has championed the beta male, the male able to harass gender criticals and anyone not 100% on board with intersectionalism.

Prime example, Lloyd Russell Moyle and Patrick Harvie. Where the Left used to be about pressurising the real levers of poor people doing badly in UK, ie Thatcher, the bosses, Murdoch...now they'd rather pile in on Rosie Duffield, Jo Cherry, and as we've just seen, Helen Joyce.

This is no accident. As the Left alpha male class, forged in the Thatcher period and before, recedes to be replaced by what I call the Left beta cuck male class, now the attack on GC feminism and sex based realities is unleashed.

What's also different is that the alpha Lefties would spit rather than accept capitalist help, now the beta cuck Lefties absolutely wield the power of woke capitalism and the dominating power of social media, to achieve their aims.

What's also different is the role of Left women. Only a few in the past didn't push to support the sisterhood. Today, Left women are just as likely to stab their sisters in the back re their adherence to TWAW, and refusal to accept the opposite.

This means that you cannot rely on Raynor, Nandy, and a whole host more. Because the Left has lost its definition re battles being class based, resembles more a professional caste based/high worth belief system, and the working class women who won't succumb are dispensable

I don't think the Left women before this period were ever happy to jettison so many millions, they would even fight for you if you weren't Left, weren't pro choice etc.

Biffology · 11/09/2023 15:07

@WarriorN

I'm only here because we had an 'emergency' on our hands but this thread was here and thanks for that.

Beyond that, I also felt that here, in fact, was an environment where I could share some ideas with people who could relate to what I was saying - folk who know the music and like the people. For me, we've represented the essence of what the audience is about. A spectrum of people, who have something in common.

I'd like to think she who is indeed her, is knocking about on here from time-to-time - I passed on details of where we could be found. While all of that nastiness was at its very worst, we were here, keeping something very important, alive.

WarriorN · 11/09/2023 15:12
Smile
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WarriorN · 11/09/2023 15:15

"Beta cuck lefties" 😂🤣😆 saving that one!

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Biffology · 11/09/2023 15:17

My highlighting.

WarriorN · 11/09/2023 15:20

Aw...

Be good to have that face as an emoji; it would get a lot of use here

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RealityFan · 11/09/2023 15:21

WarriorN · 11/09/2023 15:15

"Beta cuck lefties" 😂🤣😆 saving that one!

Well, member VitoCorleoneOfMNMafia here gave me the concept of trans adherence as effectively a caste based/high worth system, so I'm happy to offer Beta Cuck Lefties in return, lol.

WarriorN · 11/09/2023 15:24

I haven't been able to join in that conversation but @VitoCorleoneOfMNMafia's points and all the responses were extremely interesting and on point.

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Biffology · 11/09/2023 15:36

@RealityFan

I would describe it as technocracy - a kind of managerialsim, in which interest -groups are given 'official permission to exist' and then played-off against each other. The kind of thing that intersts Adam Curtis.

StephanieSuperpowers · 11/09/2023 15:38

RealityFan · 11/09/2023 13:39

See my last post. Looks like it's back to my alpha male hobby forums where the men all think TRA and MRA and TMAW and AMAB are audio and beer related acronyms.

MN is a feminist board, if this means men need to keep more to the margins, so be it. I've had that suggested to me more than once after posts from me.

I'm definitely not arguing that you need to sling your hook. I just think it's a shame that any discussion of gender and the current issues with trans activism is shunted into a specific board no matter where they arise on the site. But that doesn't mean I think that men shouldn't post on this board either, however, I do think that only allowing an issue to be framed in one context is a pity because it's a philosophical, scientific, organisation of society, free speech issue.

Not even sure what I'm saying now - it's been one of those days. Let me think. OK so it's a feminist board and I think women are the more directly affected so our voice has to be heard most strongly. But if the only place where people in general can discuss this (and I think people in general should be discussing this) is on feminist boards, than so be it. Maybe facilitating and leading this is the job of feminist women now.

WarriorN · 11/09/2023 15:45

I do think it's everyone's responsibility.

It's political and in education and in the nhs - it can't be done without wide discussion and recognition of the issues.

This board, historically, was a feminist space. I suppose we've had the issues thrust upon us though, and then the name change.

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ArabeIIaScott · 11/09/2023 15:48

It's still 'women's rights' in the address. <points up>

StephanieSuperpowers · 11/09/2023 15:51

Yeah, the problem is, there doesn't seem to be anywhere else to go! This discussion is being shut down everywhere else and you just can't speak with the same frankness in other places. I think though, it has been primarily woman based opposition so far, it's no wonder that people go where so many of the strongest voices are.

WarriorN · 11/09/2023 15:59

ArabeIIaScott · 11/09/2023 15:48

It's still 'women's rights' in the address. <points up>

Ah yes, on the app, when you star them, you don't see the title. Only if I go looking.

It was also done so that some users could hide the topic.

Roisin Murphy
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RealityFan · 11/09/2023 15:59

Biffology · 11/09/2023 15:36

@RealityFan

I would describe it as technocracy - a kind of managerialsim, in which interest -groups are given 'official permission to exist' and then played-off against each other. The kind of thing that intersts Adam Curtis.

The ultimate game of Top Trumps. Unfortunately, women versus trans are gamed against on every category.

The only way "forward" for women in this game is to become one of the higher castes, where your world will never be rocked by all this.

Unfortunately this means shitting on your working class GC sisters. And that means becoming estranged from them.

Look at that Republic of Ireland senator. She wants all chat on trans crises shut down, just as another violent male is put into a women's jail.

Only a woman who has achieved status in the higher caste, part of her qualification being the seamless ability to force policy and sacrifice any number of women below her.

For me this is now becoming the most scarily fascinating part of all this. How society at elites level has structured itself to promote total inequalities and frankly, abject cruelty, on 51% of the population.

Dramatico · 11/09/2023 16:21

Well I normally don't bother with dance/electronica (I'm a Classic East Coast Hip Hop nerd) but I've been streaming hell out of Roisin's album and you know what, even I quite like it. Some good hip hop type beats on there actually. And every stream is one in the eye for the beta leftists.

I bet there's thousands of peopoe who enevr would've listened to it making the exact same journey as me rn.

@RealityFan I thought your post about beta leftists was really interesting. Misogyny has always been a feature of leftism though, not a bug. Andrea Dworkin wrote about it in the 70s. It's also satirised in Native Son by Richard Wright (published 1940).

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