If you're GC, what should trans people actually do?

[AmaListening]

I'd like to understand what someone with gender critical views thinks trans people should do.

Maybe let's make it specific with a couple of famous examples: Laverne Cox (trans woman), and Elliot Page (trans man).

Imagine you had it exactly your way. What should those human beings, who feel and identify the way they do, do about every aspect like: names, pronouns, surgery, clothing, relationships, social spaces, work, sports.

How should Laverne speak about her own identity? Should Elliot not have had top surgery?

I'd really like to understand what the world looks like for trans people if we carry GC views through to their end points.

You could read some threads, the search button is up there ^

Agreed

Imagine you had it exactly your way.

What is "our way" then? Female only spaces stay female only?

For me, being GC is not about telling other people what to do, quite the opposite in fact. Those people you mentioned can do whatever they like except expect me to buy into a fiction.

It's like asking what Catholics or Hindus should "do". Whatever they feel they need to to affirm their faith, but don't expect me to play a part in it beyond respecting their beliefs.

What should those human beings, who feel and identify the way they do, do

They should, and can, do whatever they wish, within the bounds of legality & medical advice.

That doesn't mean that can decide to be a woman, in the case of a natal male, or a man, in the case of a natal woman. Correspondingly, they are not entitled to avail of services, spaces, sports or facilities that are not intended for their sex.

It's really not hard.

that they* can

Use the toilets/ showers/prisons/domestic abuse shelters appropriate to their sex and stop appropriating woman hood.

Ok, so in your ideal world, where would Laverne Cox go to the toilet, if out in public? If she were an athlete or wanted to be a competitive sportsperson, how would she go about that - or would she just not?

My intention isn't to be provocative but to genuinely understand what the world would look like.

I expect them to respect biological reality and the subsequent consequences of that reality (e.g. men should not be in womens' changing rooms, hospital wards, rape crisis centres, pregnancy groups etc or competing against women in sports).

Beyond that I couldn't care less what they do (so long as it's legal).

They should live their lives, be happy even if they get surgery etc. They should be treated with respect and without discrimination. They shouldn’t force other people to affirm them and pretend they see them as the sex they wish to be. They should stay out of spaces which they do not belong in due to their birth sex not their wished for sex.

This really isn’t the gotcha you think it is. Laverne can use the men’s loos or the unisex. And compete in men’s sports. Why not?

It’s not a tricky question to answer.

Males in the male toilet.

Males in male sports.

It's not hard.

Males can use the facilities and compete in the sports categories for their sex, or in any open categories or third unisex spaces. It's not some wacky new idea.

Well anyone can have any name, they can use the pronouns they want as far as I am concerned and I would follow their lead while generally using names and non at all as a more congruent and easier approach, adults can have any surgery medical staff are happy to provide but while I would be pleased if it makes them happier I find cheerleading and euphemisms crass and disrespectful to the complexities of the issue whether thinking about detransitioners, teens and those with cancer related surgeries. In life and work I would expect it to make little difference to anything in most cases but would like them to be accurately recorded as trans men or women and would not expect a woman to be expected to have intimate care - for example- provided by a trans woman. I don’t see the word trans as a pejorative one at all - I am not seeing trans as lesser but it’s different to a woman’s experience just as it’s an experience that community members will have shared experiences with that won’t be part of my experience. Sport should remain sex segregated unless teams are ordinarily mixed. I have supported trans people including ones I disagree with and have a close trans friend whose beliefs match mine very closely. Her partner doesn’t feel the same but we seem to like each other and their relationship is great despite different beliefs. A model for us all!

There seems to be a really odd idea that women are in any way invested in what people choose to do with their lives.

I don't give the slightest fuck anyone lives their life and what they choose to do, so long as they're harming no one.

All women want is the stuff that we fought for. Women's rights, women's spaces. That's all.

Laverne cox should use the male or unisex toilet. They should compete with others of their biological sex if they want to do sport dye yo their physical advantage over women.

This sums it up for me.

Also neither Laverne nor Elliot ‘pass’. Very very few people do, females
on testosterone more as it’s a powerful drug.

There’s no ambiguity here, you won’t get anyone falling to the floor wailing OMG I never considered them, I immediately renounce my terfy ways.

There seems to be a really odd idea that women are in any way invested in what people choose to do with their lives.

It's the odd idea that we don't genuinely care about women and girls, we just want to be spiteful to these males presumably because we're jealous of their fabulousness or something.

I don’t consider myself hardcore GC here are my views on the list.

names - people can use whatever name they like and in my ideal society anyone of either sex could use a previously gendered name without prejudice.

pronouns - as above I don’t care what people use. I am unwilling though to state mine as I don’t give a shit if people get them wrong and as a female there is evidence that by stating my femaleness I’m more likely to be a victim of subconscious discrimination.

surgery - again personal choice don’t care.

clothing as per my answer for names, I don’t believe clothing should be for men or women so people should be able to wear what they like without it being an identity.

relationships - as long as consensual fine, but with respect that someone who is attracted to men might not be attracted to a transman and vice versa for women as ultimately they are not their new sex.

social spaces - depending on the circumstances welcome with how they want to present, with some exceptions for women’s groups that are about safe space.

work don’t know what you mean

sports. If recreational join in with their identified sex, professional sport needs more safeguards for biological women to ensure they’re not disadvantaged.

There's a great picture of Laverne and Elliot together, in fact. Their respective biological sexes couldn't be more obvious.

What should trans people do?
To (slightly) misquote JKR:

Dress however you please.
Call yourself whatever you like.
Sleep with any consenting adult who’ll have you.
Live your best life in peace and security.
But stay in the lane of your own sex for single sex services, teams and spaces.

Aye, because no woman could possibly concern herself with the needs, wants, privacy, dignity and safety of women - at least, not when male feelings are at stake!

Transition if it makes them happier.

What would be great from my point of view would be if Laverne Cox would refer to themselves as a trans man (a man who's transitioned) and Elliot Page would refer to themselves as a trans woman (a woman who's transitioned). Then it's really clear what facilities they should use, nobody gets referred to as 'cis', a lot of issues just go away.

Don't worry, I know it won't happen.

EP looks in need of urgent mental health help.