If you're GC, what should trans people actually do?

[AmaListening]

I'd like to understand what someone with gender critical views thinks trans people should do.

Maybe let's make it specific with a couple of famous examples: Laverne Cox (trans woman), and Elliot Page (trans man).

Imagine you had it exactly your way. What should those human beings, who feel and identify the way they do, do about every aspect like: names, pronouns, surgery, clothing, relationships, social spaces, work, sports.

How should Laverne speak about her own identity? Should Elliot not have had top surgery?

I'd really like to understand what the world looks like for trans people if we carry GC views through to their end points.

Why is any of this a problem that women have to solve?

My intention isn't to be provocative

🤔🤔🤔

I'd really like to understand what the world looks like for trans people if we carry GC views through to their end points.

There's a photo somewhere, post-transition but before moving to womens sports, of Emily Bridges sharing a podium with three male (and male-presenting) teammates. They have their arms on each others shoulders.

That's the end point I'd like. Where we as a society recognise that sex differences are real and matter, but, within the sex category, people are welcoming of those who dress and present differently.

So I'd like transwomen to use male toilets, changing rooms, etc, AND for men to be broadminded enough that for them to do so is utterly unremarkable. And the same in reverse.

What should those human beings, who feel and identify the way they do, do about every aspect like: names, pronouns, surgery, clothing, relationships, social spaces, work, sports.

Compete in sports and access single sex spaces and toilets according to their biological sex. Surgery, clothing, relationships, names - they can do whatever they like, just like anyone else can. Pronouns- they can ask people to refer to them by their preferred pronouns, but they shouldn't be able to force them to.

For many sports a trans woman doesn’t even have to enter “male”. There is now a new section called “open” that anyone can enter. (So there is Open and Women’s rather than Men’s and Women’s.)

Hear, hear.

A world where homophobia doesn't exist and men are happy to support each other no matter how they choose to dress.

Like many people, mainly natal women, pre plan and avoid going to the loo when out and about. Or use unisex. I can sympathise that Laverne wouldn’t feel comfortable in a men’s loo, but womens isn’t appropriate either.

And no to women’s sports, women’s prison etc.

Laverne Cox should use the men's toilet and Elliot Page the women's.

Ok, so in your ideal world, where would Laverne Cox go to the toilet, if out in public?

as Iong as it's not the women's i don't care

If she were an athlete or wanted to be a competitive sportsperson, how would she go about that - or would she just not?

I Don't care that's up to Laverne but Laverne can't play on the women's teams

Trans people should use the single sex facilities of their birth sex. That is literally all people want them to do. They can dress how they like, and act how they like, but they must not use the opposite of their sex facilities.

they can do whatever they want... apart from try to warp reality to suit their delusion, and force me, the rest of society and the law to join in.

I wish them the best with their health and happiness.

People should take responsibility for the things they do, for example, extreme body morphication will cause a person social difficulty and inconvenience. Big facial tattoos will make it harder for you to get public facing roles at work.

The choices that people make which put them in awkward social situations and cause them day to day difficulties, aren’t for other people to fix.

This. Just the same as everyone else who is not trans .

Laverne Cox is biologically male.

So the toilets for the people who are biologically male. Or any toilets that are available for use by people of any sex.

The sporting events that are for people who are biologically male. Or any event that is open to people of both sexes.

I would have thought that was really obvious!

Someone thinks EP "passes" as a man and would be rejected in female loos.
Sorry to break it to you, us stupid wimmins take care of our own and EP is more than welcome to "come on in".
There are some female body builders who make me do a double take but once you've clocked it, well yeah... it's a woman.
As for men, maybe they need to solve the problem of "real men" vs the 'lesser men'? Male Sports in a skirt is still sports. Standing up to pee is still standing up to pee even in a skirt. Chopped off penis pee is still male pee...
As for pronouns, making people say what you want has always been a stupid idea.

When do schools go back?

I don't think I want very much. I would just like trans people and those who advocate on their behalf not to try to browbeat me into agreeing that people can change sex when I know it isn't true and not to try to make me deny what I've learned in my professional training and in the course of my life about the differences between males and females.

It would also help if trans women showed a scrap of awareness of what it's actually like to be a woman rather than ploughing into our spaces seething with male entitlement, and moderated one another's behaviour in this regard rather than women being expected to do it.

Laverne Cox had a major part in Orange is the new black.

It was incredibly manipulative.
In America, and not only America, women in prison are incarcerated with men whilst Cox is fêted for this performance.

The leveraging of empathy on that show was obscene.

I would like society to become more accepting of a broader concept of what is a man and what is a woman - so there are less fixed gender ideals. So Laverne would be widely accepted as one part of a broad spectrum of what a biological male looks like and lives and Eliot Page the same for a biological woman. People should be able to call themselves whatever they want and dress how they like.

I would like there to be respect by all for the few occasions in which biology matters - intimate healthcare and care, prison services, sport, assault and rape services, places where people are in a state of undress.

I think you need to speak to other gender critical people besides your MIL.
Or read some of the posts on this thread. You very much have the wrong end of the stick of what it is to be gender critical.

There absolutely should be a social stigma on men walking around in fetish gear, babydoll nighties, suspenders and stockings etc etc. Because yes it is a fetish and yes it absolutely should be a dirty little secret.

No one gave a shit 15 years ago about 6ft Brenda with the 5 o’clock shadow and wig who worked on reception at the dentists surgery. Literally no one cared, although people did notice. Today we (society) are expected to smile and nod at Tits Magee wearing a French maids outfit on the high street. Fuck that for a laugh.

Ok, so in your ideal world, where would Laverne Cox go to the toilet, if out in public? If she were an athlete or wanted to be a competitive sportsperson, how would she go about that - or would she just not?

Let's flip that. Would Elliot qualify for any male sport? No, right? Possibly jockeying or coxing maybe. Just maybe. And why is that? Why is it that men aren't concerned about transmen dominating their sports?

Assuming that this is in good faith and you actually want a reasonable discussion.

Trans women are not biological females and Trans men are not biological males.

They were socialised according to their biological sex and have the inherent physical advantages and disadvantages of their biological sex.

This means that while for many social situations their sex can be ignored and the majority of people will respond to them according to the pronouns they have chosen, there are situations where sex does matter.

Toilets/changing rooms - as per biological sex or third space if available
Sports - as per biological sex or Open category if available.
Prisons/hospitals/mental health facilities/rape services/domestic violence services - as per biological sex

A Trans Woman wanting to participate in sports as a woman doesn't override a Females right to a fair and safe category where she can participate.

A Trans Womans desire to be seen as a woman and use a womens changing room at the leisure centre, doesn't override the rights of the females using that facility to chose not to be seen naked by an unknown male or to see an unknown males genitals.

It's unfortunate but we all have to accept that in life there are things we won't be able to do, that we won't be entitled to, that we can't access. I will never be able to be a dancer, I am fat, unfit, uncoordinated, clumsy, have dodgy knees and am generally completely lacking in the physical ability. That is one of my biological truths. Telling people I'm a dancer, dressing the part and insisting in being included in shows wouldn't make it true, would affect the other dancers in the show, would potentially prevent someone better having a place, would be generally disruptive and would require everyone else around me to lie.

Assuming Laverne Cox (I have no idea who that is) is male, they should use the male toilets and where sports are segregated by sex, should compete in the male or open category.

Eliot Page should use the female toilets (except if at a rock club in which case it is of course de rigeur to go into the gents if there is a queue for the ladies). They can compete in the female category if they have a normal female blood hormone profile, otherwise they will need to get a TUE and compete in the open caregory if their sport offers one (most major sports governing bodies have converted the male category into an open category: WADA, WR, WA, UCI etc)

HTH

This was posted on the Trans widows thread.