If you're GC, what should trans people actually do?

[AmaListening]

I'd like to understand what someone with gender critical views thinks trans people should do.

Maybe let's make it specific with a couple of famous examples: Laverne Cox (trans woman), and Elliot Page (trans man).

Imagine you had it exactly your way. What should those human beings, who feel and identify the way they do, do about every aspect like: names, pronouns, surgery, clothing, relationships, social spaces, work, sports.

How should Laverne speak about her own identity? Should Elliot not have had top surgery?

I'd really like to understand what the world looks like for trans people if we carry GC views through to their end points.

No-one ever explains why segregation by sex is bad, but segregation by gender identity is good, do they?

No, they definitely do not.

So even in their own terms, a woman is defined by what she is not; by how she is not male. Defined entirely in relation to men. What's new about that?

This all reminds me of a clip I heard this morning on a BAR podcast from a month or six weeks back, young woman saying there are thousands, nay millions of genders. And that they/them's personality was non binary but they/them had a uterus and ovaries and had been pregnant.

Idiots like that need to be given back the concept of sex. Let gender return to the grammar books, let the navel gazers describe their thousands and millions of rather dull personalities, and improve mental health provision for people who are genuinely distressed about their bodies,

That takes a strong stomach

Just reading those words made me feel annoyed

The whole thing is quite clearly mental. Totally nuts!

And in trying to yoke together issues around sex and gender with issues around race, they've compouned an already very confused and utterly illogical, as well as deeply insulting, construct and made it even more nuts.

@bellinisurge take a bow and a twirl. IW has copied paste tweeted your excellent post.😁

@RebelliousCow
I see it a bit differently - more that women are not worthy of a definition. Because "anyone excluded by white cishet men" does indeed, as a pp noted above, include men who are gay and or black/brown. Women as in AHFs is a nonsense classification and an unnecessary one in their eyes.
So even worse than being defined in relation to what men do because at least then we would be a class of person in ourselves.

*defined in relation to men

I think what i meant, in essence, is that women ( human females) are not seen as having any integrity, validity or worthiness in their own right.

I guess it all comes down to an intersectionalist analysis whereby everyone is defined by the nature of their relationship to white/ heterosexual/ men.

I suspect anyone who gives 'white cishet men' the right to define the rest of humanity is also heavily invested in the class system - I have often observed the prevalence of officer class Englishmen who went to one of their awful schools in all this idiocy. That army officer recently pictured in the ill fitting skirt and Jan Morris aren't the only ones.

I appreciate it's grim if they're in your family, and worse if you're married to one, but sometimes walking away is the only sensible option - they can't be reasoned with by people they see as inferiors.

Thank you for this! Wow, 2018! I don’t really understand how I missed all this at the time, I’m a total news junkie. Well, not total, obviously.

Yay! Quite the honour! Any chance of a screenshot or link?

https://twitter.com/IndiaWilloughby/status/1691083978772488195?t=gx3CD4ykkKILHbnZ_fjQnw&s=19

The replies are as you would imagine 😁

I'm staying off Twitter for my own safety, mental health and job security. Is there any way you could do a link so I could see the comments, please?

These seem very reasonable comments to me. I would like to know which part people disagree with. Thank you

@RebelliousCow
👌Got you.

I’ve been off Twitter for almost a year but have never been more tempted to rejoin now I’m a fully-fledged terf.

“Trans Bridget Jones?” What is that supposed to mean?

I've never joined Twitter. Always seemed very toxic, especially to women. I think a lot of these people should get off social media and actually try living in the real world, with real people for a while.

Segregation by gender identity is presumably piggybacking off of segregation by sex.

So by sex is wrong, but then they just use that system for their own purpose?

Also, they seem to be in the "gender is a social construct" camp. So they want to segregate via a social construct? When it would be wrong to use the reality of biology?

It's all very confusing.

You don't think the comments calling g women transphobes for not agreeing to all former women's spaces being mixed sex are a problem?

You misunderstand me. I'm not on Twitter so I wanted to see what the comments on the post by @bellinisurge were, as I thought the post was very reasonable.

IW we all know you're reading, and we all know you're racist.

There's no rational reason to segregate any kind of service by gender. There is no attribute shared by all people of the same gender that would justify such separation. Segregation by gender is exclusionary of those who have no gender or who self-describe as a more unusual gender. Facilities separated by gender not by sex are de facto mixed-sex. If services are not segregated by sex they should not be segregated at all.

There is plenty of well researched and evidenced data showing that when facilities like changing rooms, toilets and detention facilities are not segregated by sex, sexual abuse happens much more. Shocking, eh?

Still no answer on what, if inclusion's so important, we do with all these women excluded once a space becomes mixed sex?

I mean, beyond 'well they don't matter'?

Thought not. I'm done with #bekind and I owe respect to no one without there being a mutual reciprocation. This doesn't work for women. How male people feel about this has nothing to do with it, being born male does not render you a more important kind of human.

If IW is here on MN, why doesn’t IW stay and debate, I wonder? I’d love to hear IW’s arguments.