If you're GC, what should trans people actually do?

[AmaListening]

I'd like to understand what someone with gender critical views thinks trans people should do.

Maybe let's make it specific with a couple of famous examples: Laverne Cox (trans woman), and Elliot Page (trans man).

Imagine you had it exactly your way. What should those human beings, who feel and identify the way they do, do about every aspect like: names, pronouns, surgery, clothing, relationships, social spaces, work, sports.

How should Laverne speak about her own identity? Should Elliot not have had top surgery?

I'd really like to understand what the world looks like for trans people if we carry GC views through to their end points.

Got enough answers now for your purposes @AmaListening and are you listening?

Where we as a society recognise that sex differences are real and matter, but, within the sex category, people are welcoming of those who dress and present differently.So I'd like transwomen to use male toilets, changing rooms, etc, AND for men to be broadminded enough that for them to do so is utterly unremarkable. And the same in reverse

Exactly this. People can wear what they want, act how they want. But donning a dress and heels doesn't make a man a woman, any more than having short hair and wearing a suit makes me a man.

I would like for men to be comfortable wearing pretty dresses and make up if that's what they enjoy, without feeling unwelcome in men's spaces. I would like toxic macho men not to make someone feel less of a man because of how he presents, and not take the piss if they enter a men's toilet.

I'd like trans people to get on with their lives without trying to invade women's safe spaces/sports teams etc and trying to force everyone else to join in and affirm their feelings.

This is Emily winning a bronze medal in the men's team pursuit. Good for Emily and fellow male students.

Humans can't change sex. Some people may want to present as the other sex and that's their right. Absolutely fine to do that. But that means they have the right not to be treated any worse than other men (for example) who don't identify as the other sex.

So for example, I want Emily to have the same opportunities and access to facilities as any other man. I don't want emily to be harassed or suffer any detriment whatsoever. I hope emily has a happy and fulfilling life.

I'm watching with interest for a response...

I dont know if anyone else has said this yet but in answer to "what should they do?"
Learn to live with and be happy with what they've got, what they were born with (assuming they havent had those bits chopped off)
I would LOVE to be tall. Alas I am not tall. Im 5ft3 and thats something Ive had to learn to live with. Im not going to "identify as a tall person".
Or get myself leg extensions! Im short and thats how I am.

This is so annoying. Would you ask this question if a white woman wanted to be a black woman? Oohhh what would you have this woman do? No! You’d just tell them that they aren’t black and therefore don’t know what it’s like to be black and can fake tan all they want…it doesn’t make them black. Why is a woman, THE most trodden upon person in all of society, any different??

do you believe a black man can look at a Chinese man and say “I should have been born Chinese and therefore I am Chinese?” No! Based on what? You’ve literally looked at someone and decided you want to be like them. But that doesn’t mean you know anything about them?! You’re just surmising that they might act this way or might feel that way.

I expect people to be who they want. Fake tan. Dye your hair. Have your boobs popped off or added on. Call yourself Shelley when your parents named you bob. Give a shit. But please do not tell me you KNOW what it’s like to be anyone other than you (the ACTUAL you). Because you don’t.

I am GC but want trans people to be able to fit into society. So I think all toilets and changing rooms should be lockable and unisex. I don’t see the need for segregation, in fact I think it fetishises female weakness in an unhelpful way. I think we should aim for universalism in toilet and changing room design, so they are accessible for as many people as possible with disposal facilities for sanitary or incontinence products for both sexes.

i think the trans community should stop insisting that all trans people form a homogeneous group with the same needs. Clearly transmen and transwomen are different to each other and have broadly different wants from society.

TW seem to be fixated on acceptance into female only spaces and perpetuating gender stereotypes that are at base level misogynistic.

TM seem to occupy a different area where they just want to quietly pass as uncontroversial. Most don’t seem to want to have the limelight in the same way.

the trans community needs to stop insisting that their members have a right to access single sex spaces, and the related insistence that their experiences should be centred in all aspects of life, regardless of whether it damages other people, or whether it means that they are requiring prioritisation above other protected groups.

Here are my gender critical thoughts:

’trans’ is a product of a patriarchal, unequal culture where people with female bodies are especially oppressed (but people with male bodies are too)

’trans’ and particularly ‘non binary’ have also become categories into which people with various mental health disorders and traumatic histories ‘identify’, in order ro attempt to navigate a path out of this discomfort.

There are also a minority of predatory men who identify as trans and are a genuine threat to women and our safety in women only spaces .

’trans’ people should therefore do as they feel necessary in terms of asserting their own identity and asking others to be sensitive to their gendered self expression.

The law should therefore recognise competing rights of bio females and trans identifying people and protect both.

They can do what they like.

What I expect our politicians to do is to recognise where biological differences between males and females matter and ensure this is reflected in laws and policies around, eg sport and single sex spaces.

I honestly have no problem with men living 'as' woman, a bloke can put on a dress and call himself Susan but I draw the line at where there is no acceptance or recognition that women are not the same as transwomen and we are expected to accept that we are literally the same.

So, accept reality is what I'd like them to do.

This is ridiculous. How is Cox any different to another man putting on a dress and a bad wig?
The only difference is the access to funds that Cox has had to afford feminisation surgery, perhaps some hormones, perhaps some surgery to remove a testicle or so (but he's kept his peen rights?).
They're both no different - they've just got different bank account sizes
A man is a man is a man and no matter 'pretty' he becomes he's still a man.

There is no such thing as "tru trans". It's just more money to enable Musk style has-lighting

They can call themselves whatever they like. If they tell me their names, I will call them by the name they tell me. I dont care what relationships they have (as long as its consensual) what they wear or where they work. I care even less about what surgery they have done.
As long as they arent using their job to brainwash children.
Men dressed as women shouldn't use female toilets/spaces or compete in female sports. So what should they do? Use the mens and compete in mens sports.
I don't do the pronoun thing, especially they/them, because I'm not a dickhead.

Live and let live.

To be honest, I don't see that many trans people despite living in London. Sure, I see the occasional one now and again on the tube or street but I'd hardly say we are overrun by them. Most of the ones I've seen, try to do the best they can, much like everyone else.

They should live their lives however they want. They should use whatever names they choose and I will use those names. They should pick clothing they like. they should do the exact same thing the rest of us do and try to be a happy, healthy person. Any plastic surgery adults get are between that adult and that adult’s doctor.

my only request is that no one try to pretend putting on a dress or cutting off pieces of a body actually changes a person’s sex. Legal sex should never change.

On a societal level, we should be willing to examine if any particular thing should continue to be segregated by sex. If such segregation is justified, that segregation should be based on sex, not gender identity. If sex segregation is not justified, then the segregation should end entirely.

I want single sex spaces. For clarity, that means no men of any kind in spaces meant for women.

That would mean Cox stays out of women's spaces. It's really jot complex.

To the poster asking if there's a difference between Cox and Bryson, I say no, not in any way that matters to me in the context of protecting women's spaces.

The difficulties faced by trans people is not my problem. As long as they stay out of single sex spaces for the opposite sex. I give not one fuck about them. Caveat - assuming we are talking about adults.

I'm strongly GC and believe wholeheartedly that no biological man should be in a woman's space.

However, the only tiny difference I could probably come up with for people like Cox, Eddie Izzard et al is that as a woman, you wouldn't necessarily feel unsafe with them if you recognised them.

If I see a strange trans woman in a toilet late at night, and we're on our own in there together I don't know if I'm safe. I don't know if they're a violent sexual predator like Karen White. If I see Cox or Izzard, I'm not going to worry that they're about to attack me.

That doesn't mean they should be in female spaces, and it doesn't help women who want single sex spaces for religious reasons, for example.

I'm definitely not advocating for any biological man to be in a woman's space though. Even if they are famous.

To the gents loo and participate in men’s sport. Given TW are male it can’t be hard to understand?

I haven't RTFT but in answer to the OP' question:

• Dress and style themselves however they like
• Accept that surgery is a serious, irreversible change, not something to be promoted for likes on social media
• Don't force other people to pretend you've changed sex
• Don't appropriate women's rights when you're a man

Should people with Body Integrity Identity Disorder (transabled) be allowed to have their limbs amputated just because they “identify” as a disabled person?

Mental illness is mental illness.

What should they do? It’s more a quesiton of what should society do for/with the mentally ill?

I personally am not for allowing mentally ill people to decide it’s okay to to self-harm / modify themselves physically.

I agree with quite a lot of gc views, I have a trans friend who competes in my sport. They enter as M50 ( male vet over 50) as there isn't currently an open category. I knew this person before and after transition. I use their new name and would use she/ her pronouns out of courtesy. I liked them before transition and I like them now. I know they are biologically male but I respect they are living their best life by going through transition and seem a lot happier.

I would expect a transwoman to dress and style their hair exactly as they wish. I would call them whatever name they introduce themselves as.

I expect them not to use any female space or compete against females in sport.

If you allow Laverne, you allow all males whatever their proclivities or criminal records.

We can’t distinguish on looks or perception - only the statistics. And statistically, women are at risk from males. Not all of them, but most sexual and violent assaults of women are committed by males. So no. You can’t just let the ‘nice ones’ in.

Of course trans people can continue competing in sport, just in the correct category. This is precisely why so many sports have converted the men’s category into an open category. This problem is largely solved as pretty much all of the major sports governing bodies have fallen into line and now have a female category and an open category. FIFA are still faffing about but this is mainly because they didn’t want to change rules right before the WC.

As an aside, the “women weren’t allowed to compete in the marathon until the 70s” thing is a myth. It’s true that there was no women’s marathon at the Olympics until 84 but women have been officially competing in marathons since the 1920s at least.