If you're GC, what should trans people actually do?

[AmaListening]

I'd like to understand what someone with gender critical views thinks trans people should do.

Maybe let's make it specific with a couple of famous examples: Laverne Cox (trans woman), and Elliot Page (trans man).

Imagine you had it exactly your way. What should those human beings, who feel and identify the way they do, do about every aspect like: names, pronouns, surgery, clothing, relationships, social spaces, work, sports.

How should Laverne speak about her own identity? Should Elliot not have had top surgery?

I'd really like to understand what the world looks like for trans people if we carry GC views through to their end points.

If tummy rubs and snuggles are on the syllabus then sign me up for the course.

Educate men so that tranwomen can use their changing rooms, toilets without abuse.

Educate men so transwomen can compete in their teams and categories.

Women continue to access single sex toilets, wards, changing rooms, prisons, rape crisis centres without fear that any man who chooses to change their pronouns that day can enter it to without question.

Women's sports podiums will still be celebrating female achievement in 50 years time and will not be dominated by transwomen.

Health professionals will be able to use biological language while remaining respectful of a person's identity.

Women will no longer be referred to as 'cervix owners' 'non men' or 'person with childbearing potential'. Just as men won't be known as 'non women' 'prostate owners' or 'persons with ejeculating potential'.

People can’t change sex. Men should use men’s spaces and not violate women’s privacy or our rights to fair sport or basic dignity.

Any thoughts on what you've learnt from this thread OP?

I'm critical of gender (a system of stereotypes) in much the way I'm critical of religion and the concept of god. I don't see much difference in gender as understood by traditional religious types and gender as viewed by trans activists.

That said, I'm happy for others to believe in God, or to believe that people have gendered souls or that people should only perform the stereotypes that match their sex. It's only a problem when I'm expected to believe the same or my children are taught this as fact or when other people's beliefs breach my boundaries and safety.

Answer to your question.
Ultimately, a society where gender stereotypes are less popular would probably result in less people feeling the need to transition. Difference is tolerated. It is normal .It doesn't lead to punishment (conservative gender ideas) or body modification (trans ideology gender ideas).

In the meantime trans people - adults - can go on being trans people but the misinformation campaign stops. You're not helping anyone's mental health with lies and coercion. There's nothing inherent to believing in gendered souls which means a trans person needs to override boundaries or compell others speech. They're just people like the rest tus.

Trans people can be valued loved respected as trans people amongst people who don't believe, just Muslims and Christians live side by side.

And all this effort that goes into telling children who don't conform that they need to alter their bodies can go instead into tackling the very homophobia and sexism which causes gender (both the right wing and the trans ideology version) in the first place.

Realize that human behaviors are on a continuum. There are not male behaviors and female behaviors. If you like certain things that you believe only females are supposed to like that doesn't mean you are a female.

There are female bodies and male bodies. Changing the genitals doesn't change anything. You still have the bone density and muscle mass of a male. If you want to participate in sports make it intramural not competitive.

Don't come on a forum meant for 10-15 year old girls, dealing with areas surrounding menarche, and try to invade it or get it shut down because girls are told that menstruation is a normal natural part of becoming a woman. It is. It is what the female body experiences.

What should trans do? Don't invade female spaces. Don't tell us what a woman is!

I have no issue with trans people, non binary people. People can identify in whatever way is comfortable to them. But I do feel there needs to be a distinction between women and trans women. In terms of spaces we need gender neutral spaces and women's spaces. In sport trans women should not be competing on women's teams. They should absolutely have a platform. It should not be women's platform.

I'm not really sure why I'm defending myself because I'm very comfortable to be considered a terf and GC because I am, and this is really going off topic.
But are you honestly saying you see no difference between someone like Laverne Cox and the person in Scotland in the women's prison.
Laverne Cox doesn't sometimes present as male, she has lived for years as a woman to me she does not present as someone with a fetish or with seething misogyny issues and so I feel more comfortable accepting her.
Right or wrong that's just my truth.

Should Elliot not have had top surgery?

Elliot can absolutely have the surgery that they wish to have and can afford to pay for (presumably the best surgeon available). What Elliot does to Elliot’s body is no business of mine.

What I very much object to in relation to Elliot’s double elective mastectomy is two issues. One, how Elliot seems to pretend that being sexually exploited and sexually assaulted has nothing to do with their efforts to opt out of being female by removing their breasts. Two, and much much more importantly, that Elliot was compelled to validate their surgery by posting photos of themselves, shirt off, showing off their mastectomy scars on social media.

In ‘celebrating’ their new authentic self, Elliot is influencing thousands of young impressionable, likely autistic, teenage girls to hate their bodies and seek to mutilate their own bodies without fully realising the surgical risks and the long term implications. That, to me, was the utter height of breathtaking irresponsible narcissism and I despise Elliot for doing so.

I've no issues with trans, just don't try and tell me Bullshit!

As GC, I would like male born people to keep out of female only spaces, to include toilets, changing rooms and hospital wards. I also want female only groups to be solely for biological females. That includes support groups, activities, social groups and sports.
Why do women have to accept trans women into their spaces and not men?

Changing rooms in women's clothes shops. No. Online shopping is available. Why should female shoppers be made to feel uncomfortable?

Treat the blindingly obvious mental health issues before medical gender reassignment treatment is considered.

No trans ideology being pushed on school age children and teenagers. No medical intervention for anyone under the age of 25. By all means dress how you want, give yourself a new name. Just don't damage your body. I simply don't believe people have matured enough to make such permanent decisions and the evidence from detransitioners supports this.

I do not wish to refer to someone as their preferred gender when I can clearly see with my own eyes that they are not what they are saying they are. Call yourself what you want but do not force me to say something I don't believe in.

No punishment for misgendering. Such as teachers being reprimanded for "misgendering" a pupil they have know for years who has suddenly decided to change their pronouns. Stop this madness.

Wtf does "living as a woman" mean?! There are millions of different women out there all living different lives.

And I will let my pug know about all the prospective students on MN that want to sign up to his classes 😂

Agree with all of this.

OK, so in the real world, Laverne Cox is male so should use the male toilet. If he wanted to be a competitive sports person - in fact if he wanted to participate in any sport where sex is used as a separator, at any level, he should participate with other males. My intention is not to be provocative, but to genuinely explain what the world looks like for most people who know sex is immutable.

This is such a to-the-point but sensitive way to put it. Love this

@Somerville

I'm not sure I count as properly GC lol but happy to answer how I feel

I see myself as very middle of the road and have to say everyone I know in real life is of very similar views.

The toilet thing is overblown, I honestly think it's fine for Trans people to use whatever toilet, yes some creeps will try and cash in on that. Let's try and make it safer for everyone and normalise full locked cubicles.

Prisons need to be single sex. I work In a prison and am absolutely qualified to speak on this. Our prisons are under staffed and overcrowded, they are not built or geared up for mixed sex and it puts a lot of people at risk, both trans and cis.

I understand why a trans person thinks t heir human rights are being affected there but tbh if you landed in prison you already lost plenty of rights so 🤷🏻‍♀️. Whether prison is the right place for many of those currently incarcerated is a totally different (and valid) question.

I really don't think the case is made for trans women in sports. I've looked at the studies and I just don't see any that show hormones reducing male advantage so yes If I'm being honest, trans woman should not compete in women's leagues. Open leagues or nothing I think. I don't think that's transphobia any more than the fact I can't enter the Paralympic's, just and accident of birth

But are you honestly saying you see no difference between someone like Laverne Cox and the person in Scotland in the women's prison.

Both Laverne and Isla are still men whether they are in it for the long haul of to get out of a sentence in a male prison, both are playing at make believe.

Absolutely this. Do not force or expect people to agree with you or affirm your views, and do not use the single sex spaces that do not align with your biological sex. Apart from that, do whatever you want (as long as its legal).

I'd like all the trans-identified males to get the hell out of my Lesbian social groups and go somewhere else.
It's not this woman, this Lesbian's problem to appease males or care about their special fee-fees.

@Hollyhead not read the whole thread but just want to pick something up.

Should my 14 year old DD have to play sport against 14 year old boys who say they are girls just because she’s not a professional? Do I or she have any say on this? Because I know for a fact she would not want this and I certainly do not. So I’m sorry professional or not make bodied people play in male sports or ‘open’ categories regardless of ‘professional’ status.

Transwomen are a subset of the male sex class.

It's a cynical fabrication that toilets, changing rooms, hospital wards, prisons, refuges were set up as single-gender facilities. Come on, be truthful, you know that to be the case.

They are single sex facilities.

Transwomen should use the facilities for their sex.

Female sports are also sex based. Not gender based. Again, you and Laverne both know this to be true so stop being so disingenuous.

And yes, LC is the same as Isla Bryson. Effort does not equal right of access. No-one changes sex.

I don't care what transwomen call themselves or wear or what body modifications they have or don't have. They should not be discriminated against in employment, housing, education, law, etc because of them.

Garrrr for a MN edit button male not make

No I don't see the difference. No matter what their reasons are for transitioning, neither will ever be women. There is only one way to live as a women and that is to be born female and live to adulthood. I'm not saying I don't have sympathy for anyone suffering with crippling dysphoria, but my main focus is the women and girls who will suffer if we all go along with this ideology.

Exactly. Join or set up a mixed sex group if you're a transwoman and you want to play community sports with women.

Every women's team becomes a mixed sex space otherwise and it's not sporting nor fair.