If you're GC, what should trans people actually do?

[AmaListening]

I'd like to understand what someone with gender critical views thinks trans people should do.

Maybe let's make it specific with a couple of famous examples: Laverne Cox (trans woman), and Elliot Page (trans man).

Imagine you had it exactly your way. What should those human beings, who feel and identify the way they do, do about every aspect like: names, pronouns, surgery, clothing, relationships, social spaces, work, sports.

How should Laverne speak about her own identity? Should Elliot not have had top surgery?

I'd really like to understand what the world looks like for trans people if we carry GC views through to their end points.

Quite. If Elliot happened to commit a crime, should they be sent straight to a male prison?

Or suddenly will sex matter?

I think that's for Laverne to come up with a solution for instead of insisting that women are the ones to budge up, lose our rights, lose our chances to compete, lose our safe spaces.
Trans women already have the opportunity to compete fairly in sports in the male category.
Stopping them from competing in the female one doesn't stop them competing. It simply allows women to compete on a level playing field.
This is a example where rights actually are like pie. The TW already has a slice - the male category. They're insisting on taking the female category slice too, so that they have two and women have none.
The very fact that you're on here telling women to solve this problem speaks volumes about your attitude to us.
We're people in our own right. We're not here fix everyones else's problems at the cost to ourselves. We're not here to give up our rights so that male people can have more at our expense.
Why is it even up to women to solve this? Trans women can identify how they wish, do what they like. I genuinely don't care.
The only thing they don't get to do is remove women's rights while telling us that the problems caused by their own actions are up to women to solve. Sort out your own mess. We're not your mum.

Do people really think a haircut will change this??

'd really like to understand what the world looks like for trans people if we carry GC views through to their end points.

lol at the pretence this isnt goady af but on the minute chance it isn’t

the World would look pretty much as is, Laverne & Elliot would be free to spend as much money as they like attempting to pass as the opposite sex, they could wear what they wanted, sleep with who they wanted & no one would have the right to discriminate against them

however they’d use the facilities that align with their biological sec or use third spaces and they’ll demanding we affirm that they are literally the opposite sec because they’re not

sorry if you were hoping we’d all say that they’d all be rounded up, paraded through the streets on a walk of Shame & then put in prison 🙄

They can do whatever they like, whilst remembering you can't change sex.
A man can walk round in a dress, he's not a woman though.

Might make it worse since the shoulders will be more prominent

Exactly this. Wear what you want, change your name, shag who you want.

But do not use facilities such as toilets or changing room that are not in accordance with biological sex. They have had cosmetic surgery, that's all, it doesn't change their biological sex.

I don't have a problem with trans people dressing/naming themselves/identifying with whatever gender they please. I don't want to genocide or murder people (despite what hyperbole TRAs choose to use).

Use the unisex. No problem. You can't change sex.

I'm a woman, I happen to have a unisex name, I wear pretty androgynous clothing etc, but I was born with a vagina, therefore I am a woman. Nobody born with penises should be in single sex spaces designated for human females.

What should trans people do?
Campaign for trans -specific spaces, services, support, healthcare, sports events etc.
Agree to use correct biological terms to describe male/female body parts to avoid confusion.
Respect single sex spaces and use those designated unisex.
Accept that some people, although they support trans people in society, are gender critical and that is ok
Campaign for a review of the Equality Act.

'but where will this man go to the toilet?' like it's some kind of gotcha

for heaven's sake

I think all us GC types would be happy to find a third way. For example:

Women's and Open categories in sport.
Enclosed floor-to-ceiling changing rooms and toilets. Swept, depressingly, for cameras regularly.
Safe prisons where no one is in fear.
Rape crisis provision for women, men, mixed, trans, accessible to anyone who wishes.
Shelters and other housing with provision for everyone.
Dating for same-sex, same-gender, opposite, all, whatever, with no fear of being accused of being a bigot and banned.

There is almost always a third way. But we have been told we aren't allowed boundaries it isn't affirming or inclusive.

Most of us started very #BeKind but eventually if you're pushed back and back you hit a wall and thus far and no further.

With the other people born with penises, or the unisex if they're not comfortable with the men's.

Oh well said 👏👏👏

It’s really not rocket science. Why are you asking OP?

They can do whatever they want, except force others to pretend that they see a woman when they see a man, or that someone with a penis is welcome in a women-only space. In other words, they are free to live as they please as long as they don't try to dominate and manipulate others into living and behaving as they unilaterally decree.

I personally don't have a problem with using trans pronouns for trans people who are just getting on with their lives. But I won't pretend that some beardy bloke with a history of sexual violence, wedged into a pink frilly dress and stockings, demanding the right to be moved to a women's prison or demanding right to access a women only spa is a woman. Nor will I support 6'6" trans women who went through male puberty dominating female sport. And it isn't literal violence to say so.

I realised recently I have no problem at all with trans people. I have a massive problem with the trans movement because it is, in essence, profoundly misogynistic, entitled, emotionally immature and incapable of admitting that there are people who are using it for nefarious means who are not in any way genuinely trans. When the movement roots out the abusers and perverts and when it shows full respect to women, I will be more open to taking it seriously.

Yes this . Do not fall for the misconception we want trans to disappear. We don’t care .

we just want out language back , our spaces back and young adults not to be given drugs or surgery . Plus we don’t want lies told in schools .

I would add: proper medical research on gender dysphoria, with differential diagnosis, and with the least invasive options offered first. Serious unbiased research and information on effects of surgery and hormones, with long term follow up, both of the physical and psychological outcome. Public health systems offering only treatments with documented positive outcome. Treatment on minors regulated as all other medical treatments. I think it will take many years - if possible at all - to have a robust diagnostic process that can minimise chances of regret, but this is the direction I hope we will move towards.

They can have whatever personality, clothes and hair ‘do they like, but they remain the sex they were born and use the facilities accordingly.

Accept that if you’re a bloke wearing women’s clothes that you are going to get a few odd looks going into the men’s loos, but that ultimately that’s a consequence of the choices you have made, the same way women don’t walk around in short skirts and low cut tops because of the looks they get.

We would appreciate it if they could stay the fuck away from our legally protected sex segregated spaces and stay the fuck out of our sport

Also would be appreciated if they can do a degree in human biology

Why not read the billion threads on this? It's very simple - do what you want, wear what you like, but don't appropriate the safe spaces of women (let's face it, this is a one-way street), don't fool yourself into believing you have defied the laws of science and magically changed sex, and do not try to force anyone else to go along with what you think/believe/wish for.

I'd like to understand what someone with anti-women views thinks women should do.

Imagine you had it exactly your way. What should those human beings, who feel and identify the way they do, do about every aspect like: their names, medical care, surgery, homosexual relationships, social spaces, work, sports, refuges when they're in life threatening relationships?

How should women who can't access mixed sex spaces escape life threatening relationships when all the refuges have been made mixed sex for male people who couldn't tolerate any remaining female only ones? How should women who don't have the privilege to access mixed sex spaces due to race, culture, belief, disability and trauma use the toilets, go swimming, use hospital wards or have intimate medical care?

I'd really like to understand what the world looks like for women if we carry these views through to their end points.

It seems fairly simple to me: we can provide female only spaces, and mixed sex spaces/gender neutral additional spaces, and expect male people to cope with that other people have needs too and tolerate this for the sake of everyone being included and having equality of access to society.

Or we can just exclude these inconvenient women (who are taxpayers) from society altogether so that male people never encounter any bit of reality that makes them uncomfortable and have absolute freedom of choice. It will be an unequal, exclusionary society in which however you dress it up, the male sex win and the female sex lose. Particularly the less privileged female sex.

Which to you seems like the good option?

I am also not being provocative, but genuinely don't understand why Laverne Cox (whoever they are) can't go to the toilet in the gents if they have a penis and why they can't compete in sport alongside men if they have a male body and went through male puberty.

If the argument is that they may be targetted if they go to the gents there are a few issues here:

1. Educate MEN not to be so bloody aggressive and leave other men who happen to wear dresses in peace to use the urinals. Don't instead make women suffer for men's inadequacy.

2.) If the threat of other men is so terrible that they (Cox) can't wee amongst them (men), how is this double standard not burningly obvious to you? In trans movement logic, it's not OK for males who ID as females to be put at physical risk but it is OK for biological females to be put at physical risk from self id-ing opportunists. Why? The only logical reason I can fathom is that men are fundamentally more entitled than women and should get what they want when they want it and women should accommodate their demands in smiley silence.

3. How is Cox using the men's loo not a gender-binary problem? Men should be able to wear whatever they want - beardy blokes in frilly frocks are fine by me if they know they are men. We need to train MEN to accept that other men dress as they please, as is their right and if they want to wee with a frilly frock on, they can if there is space at the urinal. Can you explain what the problem would be with this outcome?

I'd like to understand what someone with anti-women views thinks women should do.

Let men do whatever they want apparently, because men still think women shouldn't have rights, even the men larping as women.

Women should shhh and #bekind etc.

Great post @Froodwithatowel

GC are pro women - and children. That’s all there is to it.

Men should not compete with women in sports where there is an advantage by nature of their sex.

They should compete in an open category and let women have women's sport.

I don't give a fuck what pronouns they use or their names or how they dress and I don't even mind if they're peeing in the cubicle next to me.

But stay the fuck out of women's sport.

I've named changed for this. My DD is a national level sportswoman and if they don't sort the fucking mess that is current in sports, her and all her team mates will never play at a national level again and that's just unfair. When compared to those who are bodied as they are, those of the same natal sex, they are elite athletes. But no matter how hard they train, they will never mitigate the advantages of male bodies.

Whatever they like really with the understanding that single sex spaces should be for those of that biological sex.

Less agression for those that don't include you in their dating pools based on your new identity.