Caster Semenya has won in the ECHR

[QuimReaper]

This is quite confusingly written. Is the ruling just about discrimination, or has it actually overturned the testosterone judgment?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/athletics/66162083

A third category for people with DSDs wouldn’t be big enough. The only reason they are overrepresented at the moment is that some coaches actively went and sought out males who had incorrectly been registered as female at birth when someone spotted what a potential goldmine those athletes represented.

As you say though, any trans category would also have to be split into male and female as otherwise it would merely be an additional category for men. Realistically, athletes who need medication that is banned have always had to make difficult choices. Women, of course, have always had the added complication that the (physically) best childbearing years overlap with the best sporting years. Being a top sportsperson always requires sacrifices, one way or another, unless you are a male in the women’s category, in which case, not so much.

Can you explain. I just remember it being said that CS has high testosterone and that it's unfair to say someone can't compete just because they have natural high testosterone.

Caster Semenya is a male athlete who has a male only difference of sex development condition 5ARD.

You might find the comment nasty, but it is a true statement. Perhaps you should do some further research.

As Hellabore said. Semenya is male with 5 alpha reductase deficiency. The high testosterone comes from testes.

Semenya is male. They have undescended testes. That is the source of their natural testosterone level. The condition they have is 5ARD. They were mistakenly 'assigned' female at birth in an area that is now known to have a cluster of males with 5ARD. So much so that athletic talent scouts used to target that region for up and coming talent.

Semenya was never a female person.

Semenya has been presented as a woman with naturally occurring high levels of testosterone, who's been unfairly victimised for not being "feminine" looking.

Semenya has a DSD which only affects male foetuses, and the South African authorities have known this for a long time.

When I first became aware of the story I assumed "female with DSD" too - as that's how all the reporting is spun.
Nobody seems to mention chromosomes.

Furthermore, it is due to the reporting standards that you have had headlines stating 'females with naturally high testosterone'. The reporting standards dictated by the likes of Stonewall.

Media have to report the stories this way. Hence so much confusion rains.

No.... it really wasn't three female athletes with naturally high testosterone who won that event at the Rio Olympics. They were all males with Differences of sexual Development.

Those DSDs, like Semenya's, meant those male people went through a male puberty and developed the exact same physical benefits that all other males who are virilised by a male puberty have.

DSD's are either disorders of male or female development. In CS's case it is a DSD of male development. Semanya was born with internal testes and went through male puberty.

Semenya was brought up as a boy; identifies with males and is married to a woman. They have natural children borne out of artificial insemnation.

Semenya was recorded female at birth due to indeterminate genitalia - hence is still legally female.

What strikes me about Caster Semenya is that, other than when competing, there is no attempt to even pretend he thinks he’s female. He has known he was male for a long time, which takes away any sympathy I might have had.

If he really had felt he was female all his life and was shocked by the findings, then all this would be catastrophically sad, but he is very classically masculine, even to the point of indicating in interviews that he despises women.

https://medlineplus.gov/genetics/condition/5-alpha-reductase-deficiency/

I think it all becomes clear when you consider the possible sources of the testosterone and how this differs from female development.

We all know that women also have androgens and some of us have issues with an over supply/higher sensitivity leading to facial hair, acne etc. It's a normal variant of female development and (for e.g.) women with PCOS are no less female than any other women. It's necessary for female health to have some testosterone. This testosterone is produced in the ovaries and adrenal glands and compared to a bang average male is very, very small.

But this isn't where CS's testosterone is coming from. Caster's testosterone is produced in the testicles like in other males. It's normal for Caster because Caster was born with 5-ARD like these boys: The extraordinary case of the Guevedoces - BBC News

Caster is entitled to identify socially however they feel most comfortable, but Caster's "naturally high" testosterone is actually "naturally low" for a male as they are not female.

I hate all this nonsense over men competing as women. So awful for the women involved

Wow, so much bending over to accommodate a male. An open category for everyone is the way forward and then a women's category.

The point is he is a male and the fact that at birth his testes were internal and so he was incorrectly recorded as female is sad but doesn't make him female.

Maybe this diagram will help.

And this is from a PCOS advocate on twitter.

PCOS raises female testosterone to up to 5.5 nmol/L (and above 4 can cause serious issues).
5-ARD raised Caster's testosterone to 21 nmol/L.

twitter.com/NathanielHart72/status/1550916276490477568?s=20&t=E8muLvV5kUEpbPeemz8zwQ

twitter.com/seaningle/status/1537480540068225031?s=20&t=E8muLvV5kUEpbPeemz8zwQ

Sean Ingle (Guardian sports journalist) mentioned this

The latest scientific publications clearly demonstrate that the return of markers of endurance capacity to "female level" occurs within six to eight months under low blood testosterone, while the awaited adaptations in muscle mass and muscle strength/power take much longer (two years minimum according to a recent study). Given the important role played by muscle strength and power in cycling performance, the UCI has decided to increase the transition period on low testosterone from 12 to 24 months. In addition, the UCI has decided to lower the maximum permitted plasma testosterone level (currently 5 mol/L) to 2.5 mol/L. This value corresponds to the maximum testosterone level found in 99.99% of the female population.

Semenya confirmed he has 5-ARD in his arbitration submission, back in 2018: https://www.tas-cas.org/fileadmin/user_upload/CAS_Award_-redacted-_Semenya_ASA_IAAF.pdf

Page 15, paragraph 68

In addition, the UCI has decided to lower the maximum permitted plasma testosterone level (currently 5 mol/L) to 2.5 mol/L. This value corresponds to the maximum testosterone level found in
99.99% of the female population.

Let that sink in for a bit.

The UCI (Cycling international) decided that male people would be FAIR to compete against female people at a testosterone level that 0.01% of female people have. And it is likely that that % of female people may have also have a tumour needing attention...

And people wonder why female athletes are outraged!

Do we know for sure that he's the biological father? I couldn't find any definitive information either way last time I searched.

Semenya was recorded female at birth due to indeterminate genitalia - hence is still legally female

I'm sure I've read that Caster did not get a birth certificate until teen years.

Unless we are finally at the point of 'legally female' as opposed to 'in actual physical reality female' - Semenya is not female. And has no business in female sports. Sympathy for Semenya's history still does not mean a male can have women's sports as a consolation prize.

If it is the case that we're now going to test the strength of being 'legally female' then let's get that grist to the mill. We know this will end in the GRCs and legal fictions having to go, they were a fucking terrible idea in the first place.

This thread is an eye-opener for me. I thought I was pretty up to speed with everything, and believed that Caster was a woman with a DSD (difference of sexual development). I didn't know he identifies as male, and well, is male. Shows how skewed the reporting has been.

With this type of male DSD, part of the disorder is that the testes don't develop normally and drop like like they do in other baby boys. That is why it is a disorder of sexual development in males. The male sexual organs don't develop normally (however that doesn't mean that these males develop female sex organs as they cannot, being male). The internal testes can still produce testosterone, and as they are biologically male they respond to this.

Women athletes don't have this because they don't have testes like males, internal or otherwise.

The BBC article describes Semenya as 'legally identified as a female', while Times radio use the word 'woman' to describe him.

It's no wonder those not following the situation closely still believe Semenya is female and being unfairly penalised for being too 'male' presenting.

This is why language is so important.