Caster Semenya has won in the ECHR

[QuimReaper]

This is quite confusingly written. Is the ruling just about discrimination, or has it actually overturned the testosterone judgment?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/athletics/66162083

Wikipedia says CS is intersex, yet has XY chromosomes and has 5α-Reductase 2 deficiency, which only affects genetic males! CS is a father

I suspect there will be another round in court though as the WA says that it will not be changing it's new stance that states female athletes have to be female.

https://worldathletics.org/news/press-releases/response-european-court-human-rights-decision-2023

"World Athletics notes the judgment of the deeply divided Chamber of the European Court of Human Rights (ECHR). We remain of the view that the DSD regulations are a necessary, reasonable and proportionate means of protecting fair competition in the female category as the Court of Arbitration for Sport and Swiss Federal Tribunal both found, after a detailed and expert assessment of the evidence. The case was filed against the state of Switzerland, rather than World Athletics. We will liaise with the Swiss Government on the next steps and, given the strong dissenting views in the decision, we will be encouraging them to seek referral of the case to the ECHR Grand Chamber for a final and definitive decision. In the meantime, the current DSD regulations, approved by the World Athletics Council in March 2023, will remain in place."

whilst I don't believe that xy athletes should be anywhere near women's sport, from a PR perspective, if there really had to be a condition under which they'd have been showing in, it should have been the removal of testicles. that'd have had the same impact on T levels and much more importantly would have reminded people with only a passing interest in the case what the issues are here.

Removal of testes still will not change the body's programming to develop the body as it has been already genetically programmed.

A castrated child will likely be taller than average, maybe taller than they would have grown with their testes intact. This is still an advantage that these males continue to have despite ‘puberty blockers’. This is where future studies will start to focus on these cases. This may also then bring in those athletes with CAIS who are currently not the focus of regulations.

Lidewij Sophia Boogers, Chantal Maria Wiepjes, Daniel Tatting Klink, Ilse Hellinga, Adrianus Sarinus Paulus van Trotsenburg, Martin den Heijer,
Sabine Elisabeth Hannema

published: 06 June 2022

academic.oup.com/jcem/advance-article/doi/10.1210/clinem/dgac349/6603101

It doesn't change the fact that even at the age of about 6 years old, male children are still beating female children consistently.

Plus never had an issue with menstrual cycles.

https://www.economist.com/science-and-technology/2021/06/24/acl-injuries-are-a-growing-problem

Plug this into archive dot is for the full version.

One of the most curious features of ACL injuries, though, is that they afflict women far more often than men—as much as eight times more, some investigations suggest. Why this might be is the subject of intensive research. But a clue lies in an apparent connection with the menstrual cycle.

A study published in 2013, of a group of women skiers in the Alps, for example, found that those in the pre-ovulatory stage of the cycle were more than twice as likely to suffer an ACL tear than were those in the post-ovulatory stage. A four-year survey of 113 female England footballers, published in March, also found a clear correlation. Muscle and tendon injuries were far more common in the late follicular phase of the cycle, just prior to ovulation, than in the other phases.

The reason for this menstrual-cycle link is unclear. The ACL has oestrogen receptors, which might help to explain what is happening. But it is not unique among ligaments in this, and the receptors’ job is, in any case, obscure. Levels of oestrogen in the body do spike just before ovulation—the point when tear-frequency rises—but uncertainty remains about the exact link.

Other contributory factors to women’s higher ACL tear rate may be female body shapes and movement patterns. Compared with men, women have wider hips, more inverted knees and “over-dominant“ quad muscles (meaning that the quadriceps femoris muscle group in front of the thigh bone is relatively stronger than the hamstring group behind it). All these factors put pressure on the elaborate workings of the knee joint. Women also tend to land in a more flat-footed manner than men do, and to pivot more awkwardly.

Castor was told she was a female from birth based on external genitalia. If you read stories about her childhood, she did not conform to gender based stereotypes and resisted feminine clothes and activities. She was masculine and stood out from her female peers due to her size and always wearing masculine clothes, masculine hair cuts and doing more male oriented activities and referring to play with the boys.

she did not come from a SES or health care system or modern society that was well informed about DSD. When they realized she was fast, she was then a money maker for her family and community and a ticket out of poverty. Given she had been told she was female from birth and forced into female social roles, it must have been quite overwhelming to later have people then try to say you weren’t female. But by that point she needed to be female to make money.

it seems she is now presenting very masculine again and in a masculine role within her family.

African sports exploited DSD individuals. The atheletes didn’t have a lot of choice and when it is your ticket out of poverty, you take it.

bexyo · Today 11:58

Fucking hell what a nasty and untrue comment.

Well, as you will have seen from all the previous posts here, it's not nasty and is entirely true. He's definitely male.

I agree with all of that, hence my opener, "...I don't believe that xy athletes should be anywhere near women's sport..." - but in a world of second best, i.e. where it's been deemed that some 'compromise' is desirable, from a PR point of view, a policy that instantly reminds the audience that the athlete in question is male has to be far superior to one that requires them to take some meds to alter their hormonal balance?

Whoops @bexyo
Classic case of being completely ignorant about a topic but spouting strong opinions nonetheless.

Me too. Thanks all for the very informative thread. If only the reporting on this case was clearer.

@heckmuffin Dont believe everything you read on this thread. Castor is a male with a DSD but was told they were a female at birth and were raised as a female based on the information available at that time. They have female external genitalia

Castor identfies as a female but presents in a masculine way. I don't believe there is any evidence that they have every said that they identify as a male.

It is a complex situation.

I think you will find that Semenya has not 'lived as a female' as per reports from people who have known Semenya as a child. They have an undeveloped penis, they might have a shallow undeveloped vagina. But they did not have typical female 'genitalia'.

Castor identifies as a female for sport and that seems to be all Castor identifies as a female for. They have known for sure that they were male since they were first tested.

Other male athletes upon hearing this news have been reported as going and competing as male athletes, yet Semenya chose not to.

It doesn't matter whether you believe Semenya did or didn't know or that they might or might not live as a 'woman'. The female sports category is not for male people as some kind of consolation prize that they were assigned female by mistake. It really is not.

You can declare it is a complex situation until the cows come home, but it doesn't change the facts. When Semenya had their male sex confirmed, Semenya made sure that they still competed as a female. Semenya won in events that were for females and deprived female athletes of the prizes, sponsorship and the acknowledgment that went to a 'male'. This was done by a male person who very much knew they had been through male puberty.

"I don't believe there is any evidence that they have every said that they identify as a male."

Whether they identify as male or not, they have known for a very long time and have continued to do this. By the way, the very fact that Semenya is probably still able to compete at the age they are is also going to be due to their being male.

By the way, the very fact that Semenya is probably still able to compete at the age they are is also going to be due to their being male.

A quick look over the medallists since 2008 show one extraordinary Moroccan women who won a bronze medal at 30. The women winning in the 2020 Olympics were much younger. Semenya is now 32.

Males tend to be able to compete at elite level in the female category much longer than female athletes. This is a well known issue.

Reports from childhood do show and her family has reported that they were told she was a girl and she was raised as a girl. She was identified as female for school and in life. The others in her life told her she was a girl. They are DSD. The exact condition is known (5α-Reductase 2 deficiency). This was not some well orchastrated deceptive plan from birth to create a female athlete from a male baby. This was in a poor family and village in South Africa.

I was responding to a post that says she is a male and identifies as a male and that is all there is to this story.

That is nonsense. Some of the posters on this thread have less critical thinking than the ones they are arguing against. Should she compete as a female athlete - no. But this was not some great scam of someone born male who identifies as male who scammed the world by pretending to be female to win money. She raced as a child - in girls races. Why? Because her family had been told she was a girl. They registered her at school as a girl. Her family told stories about how people would check her genitals as a child as they didn't believe she was a girl but then realized she was after checking.

This nonsense you and others are spouting about how she was born male and is male and identifies as male and has always been male is just as ridiculous as the other side of the debate. Try critical thinking. Making up lies doesn't strengthen you point.

Semenya was born male and is male. Clearly Semenya was raised as a girl from birth, and chose not to change gender identity when it became apparent as a teenager/adult that they were male with a DSD.

The relevant point is that Semenya's male puberty and continuing male adult physiology gives an unfair advantage over female athletes.

I'm afraid from what I've read, it's probably some of both.

This athlete was born with a very difficult and rare situation, they didn't discover their sex for some years into childhood and their situation was extremely useful to the athlete and to sponsors in exploiting female sports.

Semenya has fathered children and wishes to compete as a female athlete.

I am very sorry for the situation they had to face in their childhood, but female sports and fairness to women isn't a consolation prize for men who have had a hard time.

This. That video further up. Looks like a man,sounds like a man,sits like man. Butch biological females are still clearly female. If Caster is female them I'm Usain Bolt.

There is some evidence that Semenya has always identified as a man. Semenya's headmaster is on the record as saying she was 17 before he realised she was a girl. https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2009/aug/20/caster-semenya-gender-world-championship-dispute

Semenya is married to a woman. Whilst gay marriage is legal in South Africa, Semenya dressed as a man for the wedding.

There is also a video, which I think has already been linked to, in which Semenya is very derogatory about girls in a way which makes it clear she does not and did not consider herself one of them.

Unlike the biology, Semenya's identity is not cut and dried. There is evidence either way. But the biology is clear, and it's biology we run with.

Unfortunately, it's happening in Women's Football now, too. https://www.si.com/fannation/soccer/futbol/news/barbra-banda-to-play-at-womens-world-cup-fifa-gender-ruling

'Barbra' helped Zambia beat Germany, one of the top female teams in the world last week in a friendly. 'She' scored two goals by outpacing the female defenders so dramatically, they might as well not have even tried. I watched the game and 'she' was so over the top aggressive a lot of the German players were visibly uncomfortable.

She's been approved to play at the World Cup by FIFA despite previously failing gender verification tests.

No-one is spouting.

You are exaggerating what you have read here though.

On the contrary, Caster Semenya was effectively brought up as a boy; wore the boys school uniform; was not permitted to play football with the girls because was" too rough", and so on. In interviews is very dismissive of women as being " too soft" and so on.

I guess none of us know for certain what happened when Caster was young, as we weren't there.

However, Caster is male and should compete with men. Caster is not good enough to compete with elite men, and has made a career out of competing with elite women, which isn't fair.

I truly hope that Caster and others are not given the green light to compete in the 800m again, as this would deprive us of a fantastic competition including Keely Hodginson, Athling Mu, Mary Moraa and Renelle Lamote.

Thank you for the interesting thread I would not have known, had thought Semenya was a women with a DSD, need to RTFT.
Can I ask what is the change made by officials for women’s competition and how will it apply to Semenya if Semenya is biologically male?

CS was accommodated by new rules that allowed their inclusion in female competition as long as they took testosterone suppressing drugs.

Caster found that their performance was reduced by lowering their testosterone and wants to be able to compete without medication.

Hypothetically, an intact, testosterone-sensitive male, who has been through male puberty with the benefits to skeletal size, respiratory & cardiac volume, muscle strength etc, being allowed to participate in female athletics with no restriction could open the way to any male competing who also identifies as female.

What's the difference in fact between CS and a transwoman really in terms of their competitive advantage? Should transwomen also be allowed to compete using their "natural female raised testosterone levels"? Or should males just keep out of female competition, no matter how they identify or whatever mistakes were made when they were pre-pubescent children (mistakes that would have been obvious in CS's case when their body was fully virilised aged c.12yo?)

Or should males just keep out of female competition, no matter how they identify

Yes they should. If escape the endless gaslighting, it is not nearly as complicated as some insist.

I have been shouting at the radio today as all the news reports have stated that CS was born female but has a medical condition that causes "her" to produce higher than normal testosterone. It is infuriating.