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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Caster Semenya has won in the ECHR

302 replies

QuimReaper · 11/07/2023 11:14

This is quite confusingly written. Is the ruling just about discrimination, or has it actually overturned the testosterone judgment?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/athletics/66162083

Semenya wins court appeal over testosterone limits

The European Court of Human Rights rules in favour of double Olympic 800m champion Caster Semenya in a case involving testosterone levels in female athletes.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/athletics/66162083

OP posts:
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18
borntobequiet · 11/07/2023 19:39

I’ve just complained to the BBC about them describing CS as an “intersex woman”, when they are male with a DSD.

Helleofabore · 11/07/2023 19:40

Freefall212 · 11/07/2023 19:23

And I think people who deny her the right to her own childhood experience and trauams and insist they know better and that none of it happened to her really have massive egos. I am against those with male chromosomes who went through male puberty participating in female sports sport but I am also against this vitriolic hate towards a person and the making up of lies and denying of experience and holier than though know it all attitude of many of you on this thread.

So you agree that males who have gone through a virilised puberty should not compete in female sports categories.

But you think that the world should allow a male who knows they are male to compete because of their hardship?

What other allowances for males do you think should be made on account of their hardship.

And by the way, which other females from similar situations did this male individual prevent from achieving their dreams and financial security? Any thought of those athletes?

And again, the hyperbole in your posts are outstanding.

Helleofabore · 11/07/2023 19:44

I mean, making the assumption that the female athletes that this male athlete prevented from winning were from 'privileged' backgrounds is a rather prejudiced view point from you.

Considering to even get to the first regional championships that Semenya beat a female athlete and blocked her from progressing that year is not a great intellectual stretch. But, maybe she didn't deserve it as much as Semenya???

Freefall212 · 11/07/2023 19:46

Helleofabore · 11/07/2023 19:40

So you agree that males who have gone through a virilised puberty should not compete in female sports categories.

But you think that the world should allow a male who knows they are male to compete because of their hardship?

What other allowances for males do you think should be made on account of their hardship.

And by the way, which other females from similar situations did this male individual prevent from achieving their dreams and financial security? Any thought of those athletes?

And again, the hyperbole in your posts are outstanding.

I am completing against Castor and any one else in a similar situation competing in female sports and have said that repeatedly. It might benefit you to read my posts as this post of your sis just more lies and putitng things in my mouth that I never said.

I do not think Castor is male. I believe they have DSD which is a different biological sex than being male. I do not believe that Castor has male genitalia - that one would have if born male. I do not beleive that Castor has always dentified as male, has always been male and that her childhood experience as reported is untrue and that she was always male and identified as male.

Helleofabore · 11/07/2023 19:46

Also, assuming the backgrounds of posters on this board is absolutely fucked up too. You have NO idea who people are here. YOU have made some pretty prejudiced conclusions and yet you tell others about their 'massive egos'.

Freefall212 · 11/07/2023 19:47

Helleofabore · 11/07/2023 19:44

I mean, making the assumption that the female athletes that this male athlete prevented from winning were from 'privileged' backgrounds is a rather prejudiced view point from you.

Considering to even get to the first regional championships that Semenya beat a female athlete and blocked her from progressing that year is not a great intellectual stretch. But, maybe she didn't deserve it as much as Semenya???

Except I have ever only said that I don't agree with her competing in female sports. So why do you keep posting as though I have said otherwise?

Helleofabore · 11/07/2023 19:49

Freefall212 · 11/07/2023 19:46

I am completing against Castor and any one else in a similar situation competing in female sports and have said that repeatedly. It might benefit you to read my posts as this post of your sis just more lies and putitng things in my mouth that I never said.

I do not think Castor is male. I believe they have DSD which is a different biological sex than being male. I do not believe that Castor has male genitalia - that one would have if born male. I do not beleive that Castor has always dentified as male, has always been male and that her childhood experience as reported is untrue and that she was always male and identified as male.

Well, this just shows your own lack of knowledge. I might say ignorance.

It is YOUR opinion and not medical fact that Semenya is not male. They have all they need to be male. They were born with testes instead of ovaries. They are not a 'different sex'. They are male. How fucking offensive are you to people with 5ARD!

Please point out the 'lies' in that post.

Or because you cannot conceive that you are wrong and that Semenya is MALE you then feel you can make such false accusations?

Helleofabore · 11/07/2023 19:50

Freefall212 · 11/07/2023 19:47

Except I have ever only said that I don't agree with her competing in female sports. So why do you keep posting as though I have said otherwise?

You have just denied that Semenya is male.

WTAF

Helleofabore · 11/07/2023 19:52

So now you have twisted to 'Semenya shouldn't have ever been competing against female athletes but you are all just massive egos telling the world that Semenya is male when 'I' don't believe that Semenya is male. Just that they shouldn't be competing against female athletes'.

Clymene · 11/07/2023 19:53

IcakethereforeIam · 11/07/2023 11:36

World Athletics are urging an appeal, the judges were split 4:3. Fwiw I agree Caster shouldn't have to take drugs to suppress testosterone. Testosterone is irrelevant in this case. Caster should only compete with other males because Caster is not biologically female.

Unfortunately Caster doesn't want to compete against other men because he's not a world class runner.

Helleofabore · 11/07/2023 19:54

"I do not think Castor is male. I believe they have DSD which is a different biological sex than being male."

Here it is readers, the misinformation that has been promulgated by the restrictions on media to report Caster Semenya's sex clearly. Here is the incredibly offensive denial of scientific reality.

Clymene · 11/07/2023 19:58

I do not think Castor is male. I believe they have DSD which is a different biological sex than being male. I do not believe that Castor has male genitalia - that one would have if born male. I do not beleive that Castor has always dentified as male, has always been male and that her childhood experience as reported is untrue and that she was always male and identified as male.

There are only two biological sexes, male and female. Semenya has a DSD which means his external genitalia are ambiguous but he has testes, hence his levels of testosterone

Semenya has known he was male since he was a teenager. There is plenty of photographic evidence if you're prepared to look. But it is very convenient to pretend that is not the case because it means that Semenya, his coaches and the South African athletics authorities have been involved in a massive cover up/lie for 15+ years.

burntshortbread · 11/07/2023 19:59

"I do not think Castor is male. I believe they have DSD which is a different biological sex than being male."

This is the nonsense that is being taught in schools and universities these days.
There are 2 sexes. There have only ever been 2 sexes.
There are a small number of rare DSDs, each of which only affect one of either sex. This is really simple, basic biology.

MissLucyEyelesbarrow · 11/07/2023 20:00

I do not think Castor is male. I believe they have DSD which is a different biological sex than being male.

Oh dear. That displays your ignorance of biology, as well as being insulting AF to people with DSDs.

There are only two sexes. Every mammal is either a large gamete producer (= ova = female) or a small gamete producer (= sperm = male). This includes people whose reproductive systems have abnormalities, whether congenital (DSDs) or acquired. They are still either male or female, and it is offensive to suggest otherwise.

If you believe there is a 3rd sex, perhaps you could tell me what the third gamete is?

Freefall212 · 11/07/2023 20:00

Helleofabore · 11/07/2023 19:49

Well, this just shows your own lack of knowledge. I might say ignorance.

It is YOUR opinion and not medical fact that Semenya is not male. They have all they need to be male. They were born with testes instead of ovaries. They are not a 'different sex'. They are male. How fucking offensive are you to people with 5ARD!

Please point out the 'lies' in that post.

Or because you cannot conceive that you are wrong and that Semenya is MALE you then feel you can make such false accusations?

They wouldn't have 5ARD if they were born 100% male. 5ARD means a lack of dihydroestosterone which leads to the disrruption in the formation of exgternal male sex organs. It often also leads to a lack of some secondary sex characteristics and in some cases infertility. It is diagnosed because it is a condition. You can insist it isn't a condition or that she doesn't have it to your hearts content. It is just your judgemental ego and lies.

Believe it or not you can be against individuals with DSD participating in female sport withouth the hatred of the perosn and the denial of their life experience. Have you personally checked their genitals given your insistence there was no ambiguity and that they are just all male for the entirety of their life.

What do you care about people with 5ARD given your disgust, hatred, and nastiness towards them? You seem like an angry person to have that much hate in you that you make up lies and insist you know someone better than they know themselves nad you get to erase their trauma and life experience because your personal opinion overalls it all. I am sure Castor has had to deal with a never ending stream of people who spout hate at them right from childhood for being different. You can be as nasty as you want to them or anyone else with DSD - I am sure they have heard it all before. Social media (and this board) is vile.

Enjoy your hatefest. Mock her. Hate her. Deny her existence. Call her names. Carry on from your ivory tower about how you know her body and her life better than she does.

I will leav you to it and stick to threads that are about science and sport and the actual issues, not about attacking individuals and denying them their own existence.

Helleofabore · 11/07/2023 20:01

I wouldn't be surprised now to see Fausto-Sterling's 'Five sexes' or whatever be posted here in next few hours.

The paper that Fausto-Sterling admitted they wrote to be 'tongue in cheek' and has been soundly debunked as being hugely offensive to the community of people with differences of sex development.

FixItUpChappie · 11/07/2023 20:01

Unfortunately Caster doesn't want to compete against other men because he's not a world class runner.

Exactly right.

Seems pretty obvious actually.

MissLucyEyelesbarrow · 11/07/2023 20:04

Freefall212 · 11/07/2023 20:00

They wouldn't have 5ARD if they were born 100% male. 5ARD means a lack of dihydroestosterone which leads to the disrruption in the formation of exgternal male sex organs. It often also leads to a lack of some secondary sex characteristics and in some cases infertility. It is diagnosed because it is a condition. You can insist it isn't a condition or that she doesn't have it to your hearts content. It is just your judgemental ego and lies.

Believe it or not you can be against individuals with DSD participating in female sport withouth the hatred of the perosn and the denial of their life experience. Have you personally checked their genitals given your insistence there was no ambiguity and that they are just all male for the entirety of their life.

What do you care about people with 5ARD given your disgust, hatred, and nastiness towards them? You seem like an angry person to have that much hate in you that you make up lies and insist you know someone better than they know themselves nad you get to erase their trauma and life experience because your personal opinion overalls it all. I am sure Castor has had to deal with a never ending stream of people who spout hate at them right from childhood for being different. You can be as nasty as you want to them or anyone else with DSD - I am sure they have heard it all before. Social media (and this board) is vile.

Enjoy your hatefest. Mock her. Hate her. Deny her existence. Call her names. Carry on from your ivory tower about how you know her body and her life better than she does.

I will leav you to it and stick to threads that are about science and sport and the actual issues, not about attacking individuals and denying them their own existence.

You've just told us you think there is a 3rd sex. Excuse us if we don't pay much attention to whatever you've just found out on DSDs by Googling them. That would be like asking a flat Earther to calculate longitude.

Can you not see how offensive it is to tell people with DSDs that they are not fully male or female?

Helleofabore · 11/07/2023 20:06

Freefall212 · 11/07/2023 20:00

They wouldn't have 5ARD if they were born 100% male. 5ARD means a lack of dihydroestosterone which leads to the disrruption in the formation of exgternal male sex organs. It often also leads to a lack of some secondary sex characteristics and in some cases infertility. It is diagnosed because it is a condition. You can insist it isn't a condition or that she doesn't have it to your hearts content. It is just your judgemental ego and lies.

Believe it or not you can be against individuals with DSD participating in female sport withouth the hatred of the perosn and the denial of their life experience. Have you personally checked their genitals given your insistence there was no ambiguity and that they are just all male for the entirety of their life.

What do you care about people with 5ARD given your disgust, hatred, and nastiness towards them? You seem like an angry person to have that much hate in you that you make up lies and insist you know someone better than they know themselves nad you get to erase their trauma and life experience because your personal opinion overalls it all. I am sure Castor has had to deal with a never ending stream of people who spout hate at them right from childhood for being different. You can be as nasty as you want to them or anyone else with DSD - I am sure they have heard it all before. Social media (and this board) is vile.

Enjoy your hatefest. Mock her. Hate her. Deny her existence. Call her names. Carry on from your ivory tower about how you know her body and her life better than she does.

I will leav you to it and stick to threads that are about science and sport and the actual issues, not about attacking individuals and denying them their own existence.

that post needs a Hyperbole & hypocrisy alert! Outstanding. I think you have surpassed yourself.

Stop with the horrifically offensive ignorance you are posting here.

A male with 5ARD IS a male. There is no 'not 100%' a male. They are MALE. You seem to have a very dangerous grasp on the information that you are reading. WE KNOW WHAT 5ARD IS!

PEOPLE WITH DIFFERENCES OF SEX DEVELOPMENT ARE NOT JUST PARTLY MALE OR FEMALE!!!!

NOT ONE PERSON HAS INSISTED THAT SEMENYA DOESN'T HAVE A MEDICAL CONDITION!

NecessaryScene · 11/07/2023 20:15

I do not think Castor is male. I believe they have DSD which is a different biological sex than being male. I do not believe that Castor has male genitalia - that one would have if born male. I do not beleive that Castor has always dentified as male, has always been male and that her childhood experience as reported is untrue and that she was always male and identified as male.

"Male" is a sex. A DSD is a disorder. This is a DSD affecting specifically males (women can have the same hormone deficiency via the same genetic disorder, but it has no noticeable effect on their development).

Yes, Castor has male genitalia, as do all males, just not typically formed, as for all 5-ARD males. And this in turn does not make them "female genitals". They can be mistaken at a cursory glance at birth, but this

Incompletely developed genitals do not stop you being male or female any more than any other development disorder stops you being human. If you're going to argue that Semanya is not male, then by the same logic people with Down's Syndrome are not human. Down's Syndrome is not a different species, and 5-ARD is not a different sex.

Sport does not rely on genitalia, therefore a genital disability has no significant impact. And 5-ARD has little wider impact on overall physical development beyond the genitals. So there's less need for it to be taken into account in sports categorisation than many, many other conditions, such as, I don't know, asthma. There's no reason to treat a male with 5-ARD any differently than any other male. How they "identify" is no more or less relevant than any other male. The reason for a male's "female identification" is irrelevant to the categorisation for fairness.

I do not beleive that Castor has always dentified as male, has always been male and that her childhood experience as reported is untrue and that she was always male and identified as male.

Having read quite a lot over the years, I think the balance of probability is that Semenya was mis-identified as female at birth, but it seems there may not have been any official paperwork for the birth. And it appears that the error was spotted at puberty (as is typical of 5-ARD) or earlier, with Semenya definitely being viewed and treated as male for some period at school - there was testimony from at least one teacher who always thought Semenya was male.

5-ARD males do develop like males, because they're male. The appearance of "female genitalia" at birth is very superficial, and everything else about the body develops as normal for males. And the genitals also develop to be far more male. So a 5-ARD male will not be presumed to be female past puberty, because they will obviously become a man, not a woman.

Then the opportunity came to compete as female via scouts looking for 5-ARD males - so there must logically have been enough knowledge of Semenya's condition somewhere for the scout to find him, even if some only knew Semenya as male.

The authorities knew that as with other athletes the 5-ARD gave them sufficient deniability - either they had real contemporaneous female legal ID based on an actual misidentification, or they could retrospectively create some on the basis that Semenya could/would have plausibly been put down as female at birth. And they could then point at that and deny any later realisation about being male.

Helleofabore · 11/07/2023 20:16

Freefall212 · 11/07/2023 20:00

They wouldn't have 5ARD if they were born 100% male. 5ARD means a lack of dihydroestosterone which leads to the disrruption in the formation of exgternal male sex organs. It often also leads to a lack of some secondary sex characteristics and in some cases infertility. It is diagnosed because it is a condition. You can insist it isn't a condition or that she doesn't have it to your hearts content. It is just your judgemental ego and lies.

Believe it or not you can be against individuals with DSD participating in female sport withouth the hatred of the perosn and the denial of their life experience. Have you personally checked their genitals given your insistence there was no ambiguity and that they are just all male for the entirety of their life.

What do you care about people with 5ARD given your disgust, hatred, and nastiness towards them? You seem like an angry person to have that much hate in you that you make up lies and insist you know someone better than they know themselves nad you get to erase their trauma and life experience because your personal opinion overalls it all. I am sure Castor has had to deal with a never ending stream of people who spout hate at them right from childhood for being different. You can be as nasty as you want to them or anyone else with DSD - I am sure they have heard it all before. Social media (and this board) is vile.

Enjoy your hatefest. Mock her. Hate her. Deny her existence. Call her names. Carry on from your ivory tower about how you know her body and her life better than she does.

I will leav you to it and stick to threads that are about science and sport and the actual issues, not about attacking individuals and denying them their own existence.

"What do you care about people with 5ARD given your disgust, hatred, and nastiness towards them? You seem like an angry person to have that much hate in you that you make up lies and insist you know someone better than they know themselves nad you get to erase their trauma and life experience because your personal opinion overalls it all. I am sure Castor has had to deal with a never ending stream of people who spout hate at them right from childhood for being different. You can be as nasty as you want to them or anyone else with DSD - I am sure they have heard it all before. Social media (and this board) is vile."

"Enjoy your hatefest. Mock her. Hate her. Deny her existence. Call her names. Carry on from your ivory tower about how you know her body and her life better than she does."

What a very weird personal attack? You seem to have not comprehended anything anyone has written. Are we all reading the same thread?

Where has anyone displayed 'hate' or 'disgust' or 'nastiness'?

You don't seem to be able to point out the 'lies'. You just keep repeating that I am lying as if that makes it true. No one is 'erasing Semenya's trauma', your hyperbole is overwhelming here. I don't deny that Semenya will have dealt with a whole lot of crap, including from well meaning Sports officials that forced Semenya to under go humiliating visual tests when just a cheek swab was all that was ever needed. I believe I mentioned that in a post, did you miss it?

And the stream of hyperbole outpouring just continues.

What names is anyone calling Caster Semenya?
What posts have denied Caster Semenya's existence?
What posts have 'hated' Caster Semenya?

And I think SCIENCE and MEDICINE probably knows more about Caster Semenya and their body and their advantages than Semenya does. Unless they have become a doctor or a developmental biologist at doctorate level. What a bizarre philosophical claim?

Slow hand clap for showing a great live demonstration of just how harmful the use of preferred pronouns and preferred gender references are.

Helleofabore · 11/07/2023 20:23

"I will leav you to it and stick to threads that are about science and sport and the actual issues"

yeah... righto....

JanesLittleGirl · 11/07/2023 20:27

@Freefall212

I'm willing to accept your earliest posts as the result of naivity. Unfortunately, you have then moved through ignorance and stupidity to arrive at a mulish determination to deny the facts.

meowgender · 11/07/2023 20:29

So if a man amputates his penis but leaves his balls behind, he's no longer male? Daft.

BellaAmorosa · 11/07/2023 20:29

MattDamon · 11/07/2023 16:08

Unfortunately, it's happening in Women's Football now, too. https://www.si.com/fannation/soccer/futbol/news/barbra-banda-to-play-at-womens-world-cup-fifa-gender-ruling

'Barbra' helped Zambia beat Germany, one of the top female teams in the world last week in a friendly. 'She' scored two goals by outpacing the female defenders so dramatically, they might as well not have even tried. I watched the game and 'she' was so over the top aggressive a lot of the German players were visibly uncomfortable.

She's been approved to play at the World Cup by FIFA despite previously failing gender verification tests.

I saw that - and not just Barbra Banda, three other players in the Zambian squad failed the gender verification tests for the women's version of the African Cup of Nations last summer and were banned from the competition. But they are allowed to take part in the World Cup. There is major gaslighting going on by the Zambian authorities, many media outlets in Africa and sympathetic football bloggers in the UK. Some of whom have specialised in women's football and claim to be supporters. Go figure.

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