Caster Semenya has won in the ECHR

[QuimReaper]

This is quite confusingly written. Is the ruling just about discrimination, or has it actually overturned the testosterone judgment?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/athletics/66162083

@Freefall212

This is you.
https://www.verywellmind.com/an-overview-of-the-dunning-kruger-effect-4160740

This phenomenon is something you may have experienced in real life. An example of the Dunning-Kruger effect is a situation that many have perhaps experienced around the dinner table at a holiday family gathering.

Throughout the meal, a member of your extended family spouts off on a topic at length, boldly proclaiming that they are correct and that everyone else's opinion is stupid, uninformed, and just plain wrong. While it may be evident that this person has no idea what they are talking about, they prattle on, blithely oblivious to their ignorance.

The effect is named after researchers David Dunning and Justin Kruger, the two social psychologists who first described it. They performed a series of four investigations in their original study on this psychological phenomenon.

What do you care about people with 5ARD given your disgust, hatred, and nastiness towards them?

I haven't seen disgust or hatred, and the only nastiness on this thread about people with 5ARD was from you, saying they aren't 100% male. Everyone with 5ARD is 100% male, it only affects males.

You seem like an angry person to have that much hate in you that you make up lies and insist you know someone better than they know themselves

No lies here. CS has 5ARD, that is documented fact. And CS is well aware of it, so no one here is claiming to know CS better than CS knows themself.

nad you get to erase their trauma and life experience because your personal opinion overalls it all.

No one has denied CS has suffered due to their DSD. But having experienced trauma doesn't give you the right to cheat and steal

I am sure Castor has had to deal with a never ending stream of people who spout hate at them right from childhood for being different.

Again, please point at the hate?Facts aren't hatred.

What a shining example of where #be kind leads. Shout down facts as hatred and give away others' rights (in this case, women who deserved those accolades, medals and financial rewards) because the person who wants to take them has 'trauma'

Enjoy your hatefest. Mock her. Hate her. Deny her existence. Call her names. Carry on from your ivory tower about how you know her body and her life better than she does.

What a shame this passion is never employed in defence of female people who are hated, mocked and undefined simply for stating their own knowledge of their own bodies and lives in the face of sexist and regressive gender identity ideology.

That's a lot of words to defend a cheating man. Spare a thought perhaps for the women who had to compete against him?

What a shining example of where #be kind leads.

What I always struggle with is how the people who work like this figure out who to direct the kindness to.

It's clear that it makes thinking very easy for them once they've decided who is the person or people who receive the kindness and who has else to be kind. You just make sure the chosen person gets whatever they want.

But how do they decide who takes which role in the first place!?

If I had to pick sides like that, I'd have to agonise over that for far longer than I would actually figuring out how to balance everyone's rights. I don't want to have to just pick one side in a winner-take-all!

But I guess for some the knowledge of who fulfils which role just is some sort of instinct?

And I can't deny that it seems to be quite instinctually male-over-female a LOT of the time. I do now fully believe that a huge proportion of the population do not see women as people to the same degree as men are.

I do kind of buy a theory I've seen that it's too many post-90s Disney films. Once someone has been identified as the "hero" or "heroine", everything's about their "journey" and how they feel, and screw everyone else. And people will slot people into "hero" roles like that, with everyone else being supporting characters. And in this case Semenya is the tragic "hero". Despite doing nothing actually heroic - it's all about Semenya. Back in the day a "hero" would actually do something for others.

5-alpha reductase deficiency is a condition that affects male sexual development before birth and during puberty. People with this condition are genetically male, with one X and one Y chromosome in each cell, and they have male gonads (testes)

Semenya is a man @Freefall212. I'm sorry he was born with such a distressing condition but he has cheated women in South Africa out of athletic places and opportunities and taken medals and prizes from women.

He's a cheat.

I think perhaps, bizarre though it seems, a little gentleness might be in order here. Back when I was very active on Twitter, I spent a lot of time talking to some people with DSDs like 5ARD and PAIS and some of them are very distressed to be told they are simply “male and no argument”.

It’s my understanding that, in some places, people with DSDs are allowed legally to choose which sex they identify with, which has made life much easier for them. Unfortunately, that concession became corrupted afterwards and the success in allowing those with DSDs to choose is one of the arguments that led into transactivism and the argument that anyone should be able to choose.

Obviously in sports, it matters, but I think in most areas in life, those with genuine DSDs should be accommodated wherever they feel most comfortable.

It is telling though that the angry poster is so comfortable defining males with a difference as "not male". For all its vaunted tolerance, acceptance and inclusively, this movement is at heart just another traditional policing and rejection of any sort of gender non conformity.

Traditionalists do it by saying "you are a man so look/act like one" and genderists do it by saying "you don't look/act like a man so you aren't one", but fundamentally they are both thinking the same way.

There really seems to be a disconnect with that poster's posts.

However, I think that what has happened is that they have arrived with the misinformed view that sex is on a spectrum and that people with differences of sex development are not fully at the 'male' or 'female' end of the spectrum. This has allowed this poster to develop some horrifically offensive opinions and follow a script of calling any body who doesn't believe as they do as being ignorant, hateful, and of lying and other accusations.

It really was a great example of where pseudo science is believed in an attempt to be 'kind' and 'inclusive.

I think the disconnect was that they thought that Semenya was 'just enough' male that they shouldn't be competing against female people. But that they couldn't resolve the fact that Semenya has known that, indeed the world was told this, back in 2009 that the DSD they had was 5ARD. They knew they were male and still competed. That seemed to be the point of disconnect. Because all of sudden I think they couldn't come up with a plausible way to twist their assertion that Semenya should not be competing with the fact that Semenya had known this long but chose to compete anyway...

Either way, what a remarkable couple of posts.

My sympathy and kindness is reserved for all the women whose athletics dreams are in tatters because of men with DSDs dominating longer distance races.

Even if you feel sorry for him, he's almost certainly not reading this thread so there's no need to spare his feelings at the expense of truthfulness.

It did seem to spark off when I pointed out that to even get to the first level, that a girl with what was likely to be equally a traumatic background was prevented from achieving their dreams that may have brought them scholarships, prize money and sponsorship.

Maybe the reality of how unclear their thoughts actually were was the issue?

It's definitely coming across as non man, if you are not 100% perfect male you are a non man so woman. Add on sex is a spectrum for good measure.

I can't believe people are still calling caster she and saying he's not male.

@Freefall212 this explains that CS is indeed genetically male no matter how much you don't want to believe it. For some crazy reason you don't even seem to understand that there are only 2 possible sexes. Having a DSD does not mean you're genetically some alternative third sex. If you have 5ARD then you are definitely male. I have no idea how CS identified at any time in his life - but he was always genetically male:

5-alpha reductase deficiency is a condition that affects male sexual development before birth and during puberty. People with this condition are genetically male,

From here:
https://medlineplus.gov/genetics/condition/5-alpha-reductase-deficiency/

And I can't deny that it seems to be quite instinctually male-over-female a LOT of the time. I do now fully believe that a huge proportion of the population do not see women as people to the same degree as men are.

In CS case I don't think it's because CS is male, I think it's the underdog story. The media isn't acknowledging CS is simply, literally male, nor just how wide the testosterone gap is, so it's seen as unfair bigotry. However, the complete lack of interest in the women who have lost out because of CS, which makes the underdog story easy to tell, probably is because they are women and women's stories just ... slip past attention (unless they are stories of loss of another person. We are allowed those stories).

More widely, I think it's simply that males have more cultural "gravity" than females. Think how it is if you get a new car. Suddenly you see that model everywhere. There's no more than before but now you are primed to notice it. Now think just how almost everything in our culture...the stories we read and watch, the voices with authority on TV and radio, the people making news...is weighted towards men. No wonder we tend to subconsciously "see" men more easily than women!

I find it frustrating that because journalists refer to CS as 'she' a lot of people genuinely believe they are a woman with high testosterone. they are oblivious to the fact CS has Fathered 2 children and yet still chooses to insert themselves into the female category of sport. CS knows they have an advantage no woman could ever achieve.

Having a DSD does not mean you're genetically some alternative third sex.

This is a very common misconception I seem to be seeing more and more. I almost sense that people know it's not true but are accepting it because they think it's the 'kind' thing to do.

@Freefall212
https://medlineplus.gov/genetics/condition/5-alpha-reductase-deficiency/
5-alpha reductase deficiency is a condition that affects male sexual development before birth and during puberty. People with this condition are genetically male, with one X and one Y chromosome in each cell, and they have male gonads (testes). Their bodies, however, do not produce enough of a hormone called dihydrotestosterone (DHT). DHT has a critical role in male sexual development, and a shortage of this hormone disrupts the formation of the external sex organs before birth.
Many people with 5-alpha reductase deficiency are born with external genitalia that appear female. In other cases, the external genitalia do not look clearly male or clearly female (sometimes called ambiguous genitalia). Still other affected infants have genitalia that appear predominantly male, often with an unusually small penis (micropenis) and the urethra opening on the underside of the penis (hypospadias).
During puberty, an increase in the levels of male sex hormones leads to the development of some secondary sex characteristics, such as increased muscle mass, deepening of the voice, development of pubic hair, and a growth spurt. The penis and scrotum (the sac of skin that holds the testes) grow larger. Unlike many men, people with 5-alpha reductase deficiency do not develop much facial or body hair. Most affected individuals are unable to have biological children without assisted reproduction.

Well yes, because it has suited gender ideologues to promote the idea that sex isn't binary male/female, and to use people with DSDs as evidence. People with DSDs are just collateral damage in service to identity. Just like the addition of the 'intersex' symbol/colours on the pride flag, an addition not sought by organisations for people with DSDs, apart from those which have been overrun by people who identify as intersex, rather than actually having a DSD.

I find this blog very informative on the way people with DSDs have been leveraged https://differently-normal.com/

Sorry @Superdupes cross posted with you - my battery died and thread didn't update till after I'd posted!

I suspect what we see here is raging cognitive dissonance. It's highly uncomfortable, and many of us will fight to avoid it.

Not sure whether this was aimed at me or Freefall, but I do not feel sorry for Caster and I know he’s highly unlikely to be reading this thread.

The only person I’ve ever seen become angry to the point of incoherence about DSDs was a person with a DSD who was devastated at a similar discussion and insistence she was male.

So I was advocating for some possible understanding that a reason for extreme anger might be that this topic is very personal for some people and those people might be drawn to the discussion for that reason.

This blog is Clare's (sp??) isn't it? Clare came and recommended us to read it and I couldn't remember what it was called. Thank you for posting it.

I do hope that @Freefall212 goes and reads it.

Indeed. And while Keely H is white, the other top 800m runners currently are black or mixed race. So they would all be pushed down by Caster. It is nothing to do with race or "white perceptions of female beauty".

I looked at Caster's winning time in Rio. Still faster than Keely's British record, although Keely might have managed a silver in that race and beaten the other two with DSDs. I don't know if Mu would have beaten Caster. Moraa is a bit inconsistent. All of them should be on the podium in Paris.

@PriOn1
You can be respectful and sympathetic in discussion of other people's medical conditions while still holding fast to the truth that a male human being with a DSD that only affects males is male. However feminine they may appear, they are as male as male human beings without DSDs. Dealing with this truth may be difficult for them, but it is nevertheless a truth.
Remember that for some people with a DSD, asserting their male or female sex is important, even if it is at odds with aspects of their appearance. It's not up to anyone to decide what sex they are.