Caster Semenya has won in the ECHR

[QuimReaper]

This is quite confusingly written. Is the ruling just about discrimination, or has it actually overturned the testosterone judgment?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/athletics/66162083

Of course Caster's life story is dramatic and their condition is unfortunate.

There are a lot of sad fates out there though. Doesn't entitle you to a gold medal outside your sex category. It just doesn't.

Perhaps you should read about the DSD that Semenya actually has rather than telling others to 'try critical thining', and 'Making up lies doesn't strengthen your point'.

Semenya was tested and knew they were male as they started to compete in championships. Yes? No? Is this a lie?

WE KNOW they have 5ARD. There has been media reporting this since 2009. They also have reported in some media that Limpopo is known to have a higher % of male people with this DSD. There are reports of international talent scouts targeting this particular region to find runners just like Semenya. It was already known that these athletes had physical advantages that female competitors lacked and those talent scouts used the changes to the DSD rules to find runners with those conditions. It has been written about, but it is not well publicised.

"I was responding to a post that says she is a male and identifies as a male and that is all there is to this story."

At this point, that IS all there is to this story. Why do you believe that a person who has been proven to have been through male puberty should be allowed to continue to compete?

"She raced as a child - in girls races"

Their coach stated that when Semenya started to 'race', the coach raced Semenya against 'boys'.

He also referred to Semenya as 'he'.

"But this was not some great scam of someone born male who identifies as male who scammed the world by pretending to be female to win money."

They have known they were male since at least 2009. At what point did Semenya, knowing they were male, not use the system to win money? They knew and they still chose to do so. As I said, there are athletes who after the discovery chose to compete as male people.

"Her family told stories about how people would check her genitals as a child as they didn't believe she was a girl but then realized she was after checking."

Realized she was what? A person with ambiguous genitalia? This statement is absolute nonsense. Semenya is a male. And yes, did have their genitals checked when that should not have been necessary.

It was only necessary because cheek swabs were changed under regulations from between 1990 to 1996 just to allow males such as this to compete from 1996, from when only athletes who experts felt were potentially males had to. I believe this was done for 'inclusiveness'. They didn't believe that those males would win.

"Eight of 3387 female athletes (1:423) had positive test results. Of these, 7 had androgen insensitivity, 4 incomplete, and 3 complete; the other athlete had previously undergone gonadectomy and is presumed to have 5-alpha-steroid reductase deficiency. All individuals were given appropriate gender verification certificates and were permitted to compete.[11]"

They actually KNEW that 8 athletes competing at the Atlanta games were male athletes competing in female events.

Here are two articles

http://ai.eecs.umich.edu/people/conway/TS/OlympicGenderTesting.html

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5152729/ 

"This nonsense you and others are spouting about how she was born male and is male and identifies as male and has always been male is just as ridiculous as the other side of the debate."

Perhaps you could tell me what is nonsense about the following statements:

Semenya was born male
Semenya was always a male

It doesn't matter what Semenya identifies as. They have definitively known they were a male with 5ARD since 2009 and chose to continue to claim prize money and sponsorship. As a MALE.

No lies. And it really seems that you don't really know what you are talking about.

Strange that, isn't it.
They always slink off with their tail between their legs.
I wonder if they ever actually go off and do some real research instead of parroting the TRA party line.
Made a bit of a twat of yourself there, didn't you dear?

Yes, I remember this. They wore a boys uniform and is incredibly dismissive of girls and women. Even they told their first coach that they never hung around with 'girls' and wanted nothing to do with them. I suspect the publicity stories vs the reality in time will come out.

Semenya wore the boy’s school uniform as a child

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6772989/Intersex-skiing-champion-say-transgender-women-NOT-compete-female-events.html

Similar happened in skiing back in the 1960s.

Great hellabore. Laying it out properly

I don't think people with priviledge such as those on this thread have any ideas of the realities of life is a south african village. Castor's parents were not educated professionals with medical degrees in intersex conditions. Nor were the school officials. You can listen to interviews with Castor's father. You can continue to think this was some great scam of the system and that everyone knew she was male and that she had male genitalita and the entire family and communuty all lied in the hopes that one day she would be an athlete and they could scam all the athletic associations into thinking she was female so they could make money.

Having spent considerable time in South Africa, I can tell you that you are all full of it with your nonsense that she was some priviledged child born to scam the world by parents who had the clout and pull to put someone who is 100% male (which includes genitalia - a sex characteristic) into the upper echelons of sport.

You think they all lied about the genital checks and that all along she had fully male genitalia that they were able to bribe people to ignore?

There are pictures of her in dresses as a child. You think these are all photoshopped? You really think a poor family in a village had the knowledge and capacity to pull off a scam like the one you are insisting happened - that a full 100% male who always identified as a male and was raised as a male was allowed to participate in international women's sport?

We know her DSD. You can pretend she isn't DSD and is just 100% male but it isn't a fact.

And I think people who deny her the right to her own childhood experience and trauams and insist they know better and that none of it happened to her really have massive egos. I am against those with male chromosomes who went through male puberty participating in female sports sport but I am also against this vitriolic hate towards a person and the making up of lies and denying of experience and holier than though know it all attitude of many of you on this thread.

You can continue to think this was some great scam of the system and that everyone knew she was male and that she had male genitalita and the entire family and communuty all lied in the hopes that one day she would be an athlete and they could scam all the athletic associations into thinking she was female so they could make money.

No-one has said this. Only you.

You think they all lied about the genital checks and that all along she had fully male genitalia that they were able to bribe people to ignore?

No-one has said this. Only you.

No it is thoughout he thread that posters are insisting she is 100% male, has always been 100% male and identified always as a male. You can find that in multiple posts throughout.

If she was male and has always been male, then the genital checks would have shown she was male. So either they didn't do the checks or they did the checks but said there wasn't male genitalia when there was.

We know her DSD. You can pretend she isn't DSD and is just 100% male but it isn't a fact.

He's a 100 percent male. A man born without a penis isn't a woman. He's a man with a disorder of sex development.

As he knew by the time he was 18.

Yes his female birth certificate has been a golden ticket to win against females.

He's spent that ticket over and over.

He's now paying lawyers to keep the story going.

Probably a lot of money. That golden ticket has made him rich.

And this is hyperbole and misrepresenting what people have posted.

Sure, there are pics with Semenya in a dress. There are also pics of Semenya in boys clothes.

Your hyperbole in repeating that we think this is a 'scam' is just that, emotional hyperbole. And this part:

"You can pretend she isn't DSD and is just 100% male but it isn't a fact."

is just plain dishonest. Please point to any poster on this thread that has not said that Semenya has a health condition? In fact, many of us actually posted which one it fucking was before you posted.

What are you talking about? Who has said that CS or CSs parents were running a great scam from birth, or anything like that?

CS was misidentified as female, due to coming from a poor area without sophisticated medical facilites, where having a rare DSD couldn't have been picked up on at birth. That's very unfortunate for CS.

However, it would have been obvious to everyone from puberty that CS was in fact male, as in 5ARD normal male puberty occurs. It would certainly have been know by CS and their coaches etc.

CS competed in women's sport for over a decade, knowing they were not a woman. Stealing achievements and financial rewards from women. Knowingly.

No one condemns CS or her family for the initial mistake, but for knowingly using that to cheat.

And CS is 100% male. DSD isn't another sex, 5ARD is a DSD only affecting males. CS is male and knows that.

He is male. What I am disputing is this statement made by you.

all lied in the hopes that one day she would be an athlete

The lie was already in place, it was probably a mistake. The career came well after that initial mistake.

No. People have pointed out that you are the one who is incorrect in stating that they always identified as being a 'girl' or a 'women'.

Do you or do you not agree that Caster Semenya is male?
Do you or do you not agree that Caster Semenya was born being male and being mistakenly 'assigned' female?

Really? Do you understand that the DSD caused his penis to not develop meaning he did look like a baby girl?

Massive ego!

Dear me, we are actually talking about a man cheating with an incorrect birth certificate but we have massive egos eh!

I acknowledge the environment that CS grew up in and that CS's actual sex wasn't determined for many years. However I fail to see how this justified cheating once the facts were known.

Also, We know her DSD. You can pretend she isn't DSD and is just 100% male but it isn't a fact. We know that CS is a male with a DSD. That's the whole point.

Semenya has truly leveraged the racist shouting down in service of his cashflow, that is a certainty.

Nope.

Because it depends on how large Semenya's penis was. And it is also known that some people with that DSD used to have operations as babies to 'shorten' those penises. No information has been released as to whether Semenya went through that operation, and frankly I hope that they did not. But they could have.

Also, unless they put a speculum into what ever vaginal cavity Semenya may have, they would not have 'measured' this. The 'genital' checks were largely visual.

Plus, did you read about those 8 males who were identified as having DSDs (one had 5ARD) and were allowed to compete in the olympics anyway?

At what point did you absolve this male individuals agency to be ethical?

This is nonsense. No one has said CS hasn't had a tough deal in life, or suggested that CSs childhood was a breeze. I expect it was pretty confusing and distressing for all concerned when CS, a supposed girl, didn't do 'normal' girl stuff in their culture and then went through male puberty.

There's no hate or lies I can see here.

CS does have male chromosomes, and did go through male puberty. So you think CS shouldn't be allowed to compete in women's sports then?

Everyone accepts the initial mistake and the reasons for it.
The issue is around the fact that the mistake was acknowledged in 2009. It was documented and proven to everyone involved in 2009.
It is now 2023 and it is well past the time when the original mistake should NOT be promulgated on MSM as correct. That is deeply unfair to all the actual females who have lost out in the intervening years.
CS is not the only person with this condition who has been exploited and used to cheat female athletes out of medals.