Active discussions

Meet the Other Phone. Flexible and made to last.

Meet the Other Phone.
Flexible and made to last.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Talk
Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Feminism: chat

Original poster

Gender Wars - Channel 4 - 10pm tonight

443 replies

chouxchoux · 30/05/2023 20:43

With the brilliant Kathleen Stock.

Anyone planning to watch?

(Apologies if there’s an existing thread I’ve missed).

OP posts:
Thread gallery
10
TinselAngel · 31/05/2023 17:51

Wheedle. I've been playing too much Pokémon Go.

dapsnotplimsolls · 31/05/2023 17:53

TinselAngel · 31/05/2023 17:44

Katy Montgomerie?

Show quote history

Nope, the Diggers. There appears to be some kind of Norfolk Trafia.

TinselAngel · 31/05/2023 17:55

the Diggers.
What are they?

dapsnotplimsolls · 31/05/2023 17:58

TinselAngel · 31/05/2023 17:55

the Diggers.
What are they?

The transmen on the programme last night - they dug, they sat on a sofa, they sang healing songs.

KalimbaMoon · 31/05/2023 17:58

The Diggers from the documentary I think, I think I recognised the one who looks a bit like Ricky Gervais.

Helleofabore · 31/05/2023 17:58

KalimbaMoon · 31/05/2023 17:15

I think many other TW don’t consider how women feel or the impact they have on women when they enter female spaces. So the fact KJW recognises the potential to cause distress surely means that KJW would be more open to using third spaces. Or maybe I’m wrong and KJW couldn’t care less, I don’t know. They’re just one of the more “reasonable” voices I’ve heard from that side of the debate.

FWIW I don’t see room for compromise on the GC side, there shouldn’t be any males in female spaces.

Show quote history

But, I believe that Went bad known for a very long time that a male presence in a female toilet will cause distress.

They have not changed their actions.

However, the discussion around males accessing female spaces, knowing that Went is never going to change their action… that sounds like bliss to me for a male who knows they are not going to change. Remember this is a male who has a business telling organisations to fucking allow males into the female toilet amongst other things. This is a male who has heard probably every single argument a feminist could discuss- and? Nothing.

This is a male person who has a business to sell themselves as being a reasonable person. One who doesn’t deny biological sex, who may flip flop around male inclusion in sports, but they don’t play so it is no issue for them.

But ask them to stop using female spaces? No fucking way, or they would have already stopped. And I suspect the same with words that describe women too.

This is no protected male transitioner who has been shielded by women etc.

This is a male campaigner, who has made it their business therefore has to maintain a ‘reasonable’ stance to keep the business going and the panel spots and the articles. Who has discussions with a prominent Uk feminist. This male even has a ‘feminism’ section on their website.

What on earth does anyone think this male hasn’t heard, hasn’t acknowledged may be an issue that may cause them to change their mind?

When their entire livelihood and persona is built on them listening but not budging unless a law or a significant policy changes. Such as sport? I suspect it was time for Went to change their tracking because World Athletics and other federations did.

The writing is on the wall that all the sports will make this change. I deeply suspect that it was expedient for Went to change then. I suspect that the same will happen when changes to the EA or the GRA happen. Went will then change their position to suit.

Helleofabore · 31/05/2023 18:01

dapsnotplimsolls · 31/05/2023 17:53

Nope, the Diggers. There appears to be some kind of Norfolk Trafia.

Show quote history

I suspect Went and the diggers were instrumental in getting Norfolk council to affirm their allyship for trans rights.

Again, Went would have been right there telling the council that women’s spaces are for anyone.

IcakethereforeIam · 31/05/2023 18:03

Normal for Norfolx.

TinselAngel · 31/05/2023 18:04

The transmen on the programme last night
Oh, the ones with the glaringly obvious female socialisation.

AutumnCrow · 31/05/2023 18:08

Tinysoxx · 31/05/2023 17:17

Woman enters women’s toilets. Hears a man’s voice talking to someone else in there that obviously knows he’s male too. Then it goes silent…..

Think I’d rather he carried on talking if he had decided it was his right to be in there.

Yes. It’s become a situation where a man is concealed in a women’s toilet.

Big bloody red flag 🚩

KalimbaMoon · 31/05/2023 18:09

Helleofabore · 31/05/2023 17:58

But, I believe that Went bad known for a very long time that a male presence in a female toilet will cause distress.

They have not changed their actions.

However, the discussion around males accessing female spaces, knowing that Went is never going to change their action… that sounds like bliss to me for a male who knows they are not going to change. Remember this is a male who has a business telling organisations to fucking allow males into the female toilet amongst other things. This is a male who has heard probably every single argument a feminist could discuss- and? Nothing.

This is a male person who has a business to sell themselves as being a reasonable person. One who doesn’t deny biological sex, who may flip flop around male inclusion in sports, but they don’t play so it is no issue for them.

But ask them to stop using female spaces? No fucking way, or they would have already stopped. And I suspect the same with words that describe women too.

This is no protected male transitioner who has been shielded by women etc.

This is a male campaigner, who has made it their business therefore has to maintain a ‘reasonable’ stance to keep the business going and the panel spots and the articles. Who has discussions with a prominent Uk feminist. This male even has a ‘feminism’ section on their website.

What on earth does anyone think this male hasn’t heard, hasn’t acknowledged may be an issue that may cause them to change their mind?

When their entire livelihood and persona is built on them listening but not budging unless a law or a significant policy changes. Such as sport? I suspect it was time for Went to change their tracking because World Athletics and other federations did.

The writing is on the wall that all the sports will make this change. I deeply suspect that it was expedient for Went to change then. I suspect that the same will happen when changes to the EA or the GRA happen. Went will then change their position to suit.

Show quote history

I didn’t know he was a campaigner until I saw his website, did I miss something about that in the programme? I felt they presented him as one of those old-school TW who are just trying to quietly get on with things - a reasonable, decent sort in stark contrast to the whining students. So I didn’t realise he was a significant player in this arena. He could have been an ally to women.

TinselAngel · 31/05/2023 18:13

I felt they presented him as one of those old-school TW who are just trying to quietly get on with things - a reasonable, decent sort in stark contrast to the whining students. So I didn’t realise he was a significant player in this arena. He could have been an ally to women.

That's what he no doubt wants you to think and is why it's important to do your own research. It's probably what gets him bookings on GB News too.

They all write blogs about how stunning and brave they are so the research is not even time consuming.

ApocalipstickNow · 31/05/2023 18:15

Justnot · 31/05/2023 17:54

Well Billy’s written an essay

https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1663869123271573507.html

there is a whole twitter thread too but that’s even more annoying to read apart from the comments

https://twitter.com/billybragg/status/1663869148068298755

Sorry if this is a derail- but this has just really annoyed me. Billy states

Billy Bragg
@billybragg
·
5h
Does that argument not apply to lesbians as well? They are not equipped to have sex as defined by biology with other women. Their ‘hardware’ is incompatible. The belief that nature designed two sexes to be conjoined together for the purpose of procreation is an ancient one 4/10

but what he means, surely, is “lesbians are not equipped to sexually reproduce as defined by biology with other women”

Im sure he’d accept 2 men are equipped to have sexual with each other despite the lack of a vagina, wouldn’t he?

https://twitter.com/billybragg

TinselAngel · 31/05/2023 18:16

Also- those mythical old fashioned transexuals who just wanted to get on with their life never actually existed. See GIRES, Press for Change (Whittle!) etc. they just campaigned behind the scenes instead of shouting "witch" and trying to run women over with walking frames.

Helleofabore · 31/05/2023 18:21

TinselAngel · 31/05/2023 18:16

Also- those mythical old fashioned transexuals who just wanted to get on with their life never actually existed. See GIRES, Press for Change (Whittle!) etc. they just campaigned behind the scenes instead of shouting "witch" and trying to run women over with walking frames.

This is true.

this is very true.

IcakethereforeIam · 31/05/2023 18:27

Someone on that Billy Bragg tweet thread some said that Katy Jon has a DSD.

Justnot · 31/05/2023 18:31

Billy confusing sex and sexuality, if biology is immutable, sexuality is too - he doesn’t know what words mean

nilsmousehammer · 31/05/2023 18:32

TinselAngel · 31/05/2023 17:50

Yes that's why I've been he/ himming with gay abandon.

So it more of a weedle than a demand. "You don't have to call me she but I do prefer it"

Yes.

Is it any nicer to be oppressed, excluded and denied equality nicely and politely than screamingly with death threats?

No. Not really.

At least the screamers are being honest about what they're doing.

Justnot · 31/05/2023 18:34

I imagine Billy sitting there watching the telly thinking he’s cracked it…..

ArabeIIaScott · 31/05/2023 18:40

IcakethereforeIam · 31/05/2023 18:03

Normal for Norfolx.

😄

BonfireLady · 31/05/2023 19:26

I just had a quick look at KJW's Twitter feed... This was interesting:

More talk, more drink, more cats seems to be a consensus. Kathleen and I both have cats

Followed by:

Toilets are the least of the issues and solvable with decency, common sense.and some additional not replacement neutral facilities funding. I'd feel safest in a door marked cat-owners!

Perhaps third spaces are finally on the discussion table.
Although I absolutely take the point that KJW has form (and a thriving business etc) perhaps she/they/he (following KJW's own lead on pronouns here) has decided that this is the Joe Wicks opportunity moment. Spot a gap in the market to be a proper celebrity. A modern day hero to all sides. Well, I'm not budging on single sex spaces and services or the harms that are currently being done to children's bodies, but I'll still happily join a conversation on that basis. I'm definitely open to hearing what it feels like to be a trans woman and understand more about that from KJW's perspective. If there is a fetish element to her/his/their world, I'll pass on hearing more about that but I'll happily help boost a campaign for inclusivity and removing fear and discrimination. But that doesn't change the non-negotiable boundaries.

Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g · 31/05/2023 19:30

Hepwo · 31/05/2023 17:20

The strategy of getting young people on board is backfiring.

Posh Oxbridge twits like Kass and Gluehands are not appealing to anyone other than themselves and their elite in group.

They certainly don't attract sympathy for their claims. I'm not surprised Whittle had a panic over the preview. Although all the moaning about their hard life as a Russell Group university professor, now retired, is ridiculous!

A pedant writes: it was Manchester Met, wasn't it? So not Russell Group, but yes, a university professor in law. Yes, law. Wanted Channel 4 to put a murder trial at risk by including details of a recent tragic murder which has not yet come to trial.

Interesting to get more info about KJW. I'd not come across this person before and I too thought the producer had put KJW in as an example of an old school transsexual just getting on with things. Disingenuous now I know that KJW is keen to do EDI training and sits on various panels.

What happened with MY? I remember years ago MY used to post here and got a warm welcome.

BonfireLady · 31/05/2023 19:34

BonfireLady · 31/05/2023 19:26

I just had a quick look at KJW's Twitter feed... This was interesting:

More talk, more drink, more cats seems to be a consensus. Kathleen and I both have cats

Followed by:

Toilets are the least of the issues and solvable with decency, common sense.and some additional not replacement neutral facilities funding. I'd feel safest in a door marked cat-owners!

Perhaps third spaces are finally on the discussion table.
Although I absolutely take the point that KJW has form (and a thriving business etc) perhaps she/they/he (following KJW's own lead on pronouns here) has decided that this is the Joe Wicks opportunity moment. Spot a gap in the market to be a proper celebrity. A modern day hero to all sides. Well, I'm not budging on single sex spaces and services or the harms that are currently being done to children's bodies, but I'll still happily join a conversation on that basis. I'm definitely open to hearing what it feels like to be a trans woman and understand more about that from KJW's perspective. If there is a fetish element to her/his/their world, I'll pass on hearing more about that but I'll happily help boost a campaign for inclusivity and removing fear and discrimination. But that doesn't change the non-negotiable boundaries.

Ps yes I did spot the down playing of toilets as an issue.
That's fine as it works both ways to diffuse the heat out of the conversation. It's a non-negotiable issue. The main point is the mention of additional neutral spaces. That's a conversation opener.