Meet the Other Phone. Only the apps you allow.

Meet the Other Phone.
Only the apps you allow.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Gender Wars - Channel 4 - 10pm tonight

443 replies

chouxchoux · 30/05/2023 20:43

With the brilliant Kathleen Stock.

Anyone planning to watch?

(Apologies if there’s an existing thread I’ve missed).

OP posts:
Thread gallery
10
TinselAngel · 01/06/2023 00:07

Time for me to go to bed I was referring to RealityFan's post!

Sorry MouseMinge

MouseMinge · 01/06/2023 00:19

I'm gutted! Don't worry about it @TinselAngel . I'm in full agreement with @RealityFan as well.

dunBle · 01/06/2023 04:00

Justnot · 31/05/2023 18:31

Billy confusing sex and sexuality, if biology is immutable, sexuality is too - he doesn’t know what words mean

Which is ironic, given the title of one of his Top 30 hits.

Kucinghitam · 01/06/2023 06:26

@ApocalipstickNow Im sure he’d accept 2 men are equipped to have sexual with each other despite the lack of a vagina, wouldn’t he?

It's clear from what he wrote there that his primary motivation is misogyny. As you say, I doubt he'd have any trouble imagining that The Mighty Peens are 'hardware' well-equipped to have a good time in any combination. Whereas to Bragg, female humans are just passive receptacles; partially-sentient support bipeds for the actual people, the ones with The Mighty Peen: therefore obviously how could passive receptacles be equipped for anything else?

The homophobia against same-sex attracted women, seems more like a by-product of the misogyny.

TinyTopknot · 01/06/2023 07:27

TinselAngel · 31/05/2023 22:18

No. You're over confident. There's plenty of evidence just on this thread of women being beguiled into thinking a raging TRA is a "reasonable" "transexual".

This.

WarriorN · 01/06/2023 07:35

I agree that I don't think anything major will come from this.

I also think the next GE if swings to labour, any progress will be lost, partly as a new government is a massive distraction. And partly as they're too chicken to discuss it.

However, it could mean that the feminist views are discussed more in the mainstream in a way that means it's much easier to discuss the inherent harms. Which will help across society generally - schools in particular.

I've experienced the impact locally on parents tentatively starting to discuss the issue in the park on play dates. Parents are the ones who are countering this in schools.

A friend mentioned the sport issue. Countered with "people should be able to choose how they want to live their lives but don't go stealing women's sports places." I agreed re sport but also that actually I'm not sure i agree with her other point as it's more complicated across other parts of society. We didn't continue the conversation bar agreeing that kids should be left alone, but this programme would have filled in some gaps.

If I reflect on my own journey, hearing more "reasonable" TRAs talk was helpful in the early stages before getting to the WTF ODFO stages. KJW is useful from that pov for the masses but also agree not to be under any illusion that they're actually reasonable.

I think KJW is embarking on a mirroring self PR campaign.

Emotionalsupportviper · 01/06/2023 07:40

TinselAngel · 31/05/2023 21:44

where is the risk in believing that conversation to make it happen is possible?

Because you will be beguiled and manipulated into giving away your boundaries. Trans Widows know how these men operate.

THIS! ⬆

In Spades!

LoobiJee · 01/06/2023 07:44

@ Warrior What’s a “mirroring self PR campaign”? I agree on the self promotion but I haven’t come across mirroring before in that context.

Helleofabore · 01/06/2023 08:01

“where is the risk in believing that conversation to make it happen is possible?”

The other issue is if only ‘reasonable’ male trans activists are presented on a panel or in a documentary, people start to think, ‘ok, what is the issue? Why are prople so worried? Why are people saying they are being cancelled?’ It gives an entirely false perception of what has really happened and what the forces on the discussion are like now.

I am not saying don’t have them, I am saying there needs to be acknowledgment, if they are there, of the hostility of the discussion so far.

And if such an individual is there and is the only trans representative, that the woman representing women’s needs is not only very calm, but is experienced in getting their message across quickly and precisely before filling the message out. (Rather than building up to deliver the message, if you know what I mean)

The other danger is that on some issues they come around to ‘ageeeing’, because it is expedient for them to concede as they look to the future. Such as sport. They concede there. But people then believe this ‘reasonable’ male will be an ally in other specificities on women and children’s rights. When they aren’t. They just aren’t abusive, and they listen, then calmly continue on their way.

Just like a person who nods their head along indicating that they have heard you, but not that they agree. But you think they agree and so you haven’t asked the specific question. But they haven’t agreed at all.

In short, a person who appears reasonable superficially as Went does, is very dangerous. It means that people believe the issues are in calm considered hands but when the result comes through, realise they have been sold yet another dud. All because they believed a male person who is deceptively reasonable.

Woman2023 · 01/06/2023 08:03

Regarding being overconfident - the comment below was about asking whether KJW uses women's toilets now.

That would be great, but also unlikely. So I'm not going to waste my energy arguing for it in the short term, when the longer term gain of a wider support for gender neutral spaces seems to be getting closer to being real.

How exactly can we push for 3rd spaces for men with a 'gender identity' of woman if we simply accept them in the ladies now? Don't start a negotiation by giving them exactly what they want!

Woman2023 · 01/06/2023 08:06

There are no, absolutely zero, reasonable trans activists. Each and every one of them wants special leave to violate women's boundaries.

EmmaGrundyForPM · 01/06/2023 08:26

@Woman2023 I don't agree. What about people like Hayton?

Empowermenomore · 01/06/2023 08:34

To me a great difficulty sets within women ‘agreeable’ nature. We have been socialised to please, avoid conflict and agree to compromise. Most people will see this from their daily circumstances and will concede. It’s such a small number of people, I’m sure it won’t inconvenience me. But it is a small number of people that can have a huge impact in most contexts. Whether Mtf or ftm there is a misogynistic current under the transition proposition and it permeates all aspects of life.

You might be fine with the live and let live, but when your daughter starts considering she might be a man instead of lesbian, or is pushed out of their favourite sport competition or she is flashed in a hanging room, or you are seen by a mtf nurse despite asking for a female one or your mum has to share a room in a ward with such a person, things might change even if that mtf is a nice person. But by then, it might be too late.

The pretense becomes a lie when you are forced to accept it on every single aspect of your life, even when pressured to consider sexual partners.

Imho the only hope is to reinforce distinction between LGB and the T+ from schools and make sure the EDI business is not monopolised by The usual suspects.

terryleather · 01/06/2023 08:36

EmmaGrundyForPM · 01/06/2023 08:26

@Woman2023 I don't agree. What about people like Hayton?

Hayton is a self confessed agp with a wife and children, who decided to reveal his "true self" on the eve of one of his teen daughter's exams iirc, and who was responsible for drafting trans guidance for schools.

If you think that's all reasonable I can't help you.

I agree with Woman2023.

WarriorN · 01/06/2023 08:45

LoobiJee · 01/06/2023 07:44

@ Warrior What’s a “mirroring self PR campaign”? I agree on the self promotion but I haven’t come across mirroring before in that context.

Copying / mirroring how Stock is being accepted in the media as she's on the moderate side and always makes pro trans points while maintaining the stance men can't be women.

We've had no reasonable mainstream coverage as no one would debate. #nodebate.

KJW recently conceded on sports and now agrees with the bans. A u turn. This gets them air time as the media loves "balance" and moderate reasonable TRAs can be aired alongside feminists. (Because women can't speak for themselves and be heard 🙄)

KJW is PRing themselves to appear reasonable. It's chameleonic.

Also contributed to this

The trans teen trend: a case of social contagion? www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4717248-the-trans-teen-trend-a-case-of-social-contagion

WarriorN · 01/06/2023 08:46

Because you will be beguiled and manipulated into giving away your boundaries. Trans Widows know how these men operate.

Exactly

ArabeIIaScott · 01/06/2023 08:46

terryleather · 01/06/2023 08:36

Hayton is a self confessed agp with a wife and children, who decided to reveal his "true self" on the eve of one of his teen daughter's exams iirc, and who was responsible for drafting trans guidance for schools.

If you think that's all reasonable I can't help you.

I agree with Woman2023.

The exam night reveal was Jane Ozimek/Fae

terryleather · 01/06/2023 08:50

Thanks for the correction Arabella.

I believe my point still stands though, "reasonable" is not how I would describe Hayton.

Helleofabore · 01/06/2023 08:51

EmmaGrundyForPM · 01/06/2023 08:26

@Woman2023 I don't agree. What about people like Hayton?

Had Hayton had the guidance that Hayton wrote stating that males should use female toilets changed or replaced yet? I have not seen any record of that happening.

Does Hayton now only use the male toilets and changing rooms?

Last time Hayton was on this board, they were still demanding that women allow males into their spaces sometimes. I am sure someone will find the thread.

TinselAngel · 01/06/2023 08:53

He also said here, that women judge each others status by their breast size.

WarriorN · 01/06/2023 08:53

I've changed moved on in my mind since watching the Claire Fox debate, I liked their involvement at the time as it was refreshing to hear an actual debate.

Katy said they had an intersex condition in that which hasn't been mentioned since. Chameleonic.

It's impossible to be a man saying they're a woman and be 'reasonable.'

Helleofabore · 01/06/2023 08:55

TinselAngel · 01/06/2023 08:53

He also said here, that women judge each others status by their breast size.

Yes, I remember Hayton doing that. Yes.

Hayton is not a friend of feminists, despite being considered a reasonable ‘go to’ trans activist.

EmmaGrundyForPM · 01/06/2023 08:57

I'm prepared to stand corrected about Hayton if someone can post the links, I follow him on Twitter and he comes across OK from what I've seen. But I don't actually go on twitter very often now, so might have missed stuff. I didn't know about him "coming out" as trans during his daughters exams, that's truly shitty.