Gender Wars - Channel 4 - 10pm tonight

[chouxchoux]

With the brilliant Kathleen Stock.

Anyone planning to watch?

(Apologies if there’s an existing thread I’ve missed).

I thought this too. Gives me a little hope.

I thought KJW was likeable and seemed reasonable, reading up on the GC viewpoint (or just buying piles of books that will sit around unread, but at least some effort was being made!). Even though KJW may have similar wants to the fervent TRAs, at least KJW is not screaming in women’s faces and shutting them down. KJW is willing to listen to different views. The only way through this is to get people to listen to the gender-critical side, even if they disagree with what we’re saying.

Lucy Mangan’s right that the documentary really only scratched the surface of the issues. Still, it’s a start - and it’s got the ball rolling in terms of ending NoDebate and getting everything out in the open.

I’ve seen ‘Terfling’ used on Twitter for JKR - they refer to her as J K Terfling …

My overriding feeling from watching Went and the talk about moderate arguments on both sides was firstly that I expect Went’s version of moderate involves certain types of males who identify as women deciding which of them gets included in the ‘woman’ category (a La Debbie Hayton) and secondly that I don’t think the GC position is immoderate. The fundamental point is no males in female spaces at all. If the argument from the other side is that this is an extreme position then I’ll be an extremist. There is no compromise on this. It’s what we had before and look where it got us.

Please stop being grateful for crumbs

I agree, it's zero sum game to most on this forum. It may also be to most women out there as well, but I'd be less sure of this.

#BeKind #Don'tJudge etc have been running for years, and the effect is that women really think twice to be accommodating.

And we all know who's taken advantage of this.

See my last message.

If they won’t talk to us though, we’ll get nowhere. That’s why I think we’ve got a better chance of reasoning with someone like KJW than we do with someone holding a Decapitate Terfs banner.

You'll still end up with the same result- men in women's spaces. I'd rather have honest opposition than manipulation.

Yes, I was going to say that positioning oneself as 'moderate' while still using women's spaces is rubbish.

Terrorising women is not 'moderate'.

I disagree. Went is not going to change Went’s mind. And probably not going to change decapitate terfs person either with discussion (I suspect that person’s views will change with age and experience- not Went though)

Went really would have changed their mind by now. Apparently they talk to Linda Bellos every week or so.

What do you think will change Went’s mind? A new version of a story Went has heard before. Best we can do is utilise the discussion to change other minds. I suggest not ever holding hope that Went will change their mind.

Went loves discussion about this. You can make up your own mind what I mean when I say this. I expect that this is a dream for Went.

Trans Widows will all tell you that all the discussion in the world ultimately makes no difference.

KJW had the self-awareness to recognise that a male voice in the ladies’ loos could be alarming to women in there. I guess that gave me cause for optimism that they could be persuaded not to continue using those spaces.

He knows his presence may distress women but does it anyway. Why would this be likely to change just because you ask him nicely?

A Point is realised. It then just gets modified to not talking to the woman in the next cubicle 🤷‍♀️. Then you should be grateful.

It is the compromise of the unjust man.

"Meet me in the middle," says the unjust man. You take a step towards him, he takes a step back. "Meet me in the middle," says the unjust man.

Blimey, don't give them ideas!

'We trans the world
We trans the children
We'll cut your tits and your other bits
So just start giving .... '

I think many other TW don’t consider how women feel or the impact they have on women when they enter female spaces. So the fact KJW recognises the potential to cause distress surely means that KJW would be more open to using third spaces. Or maybe I’m wrong and KJW couldn’t care less, I don’t know. They’re just one of the more “reasonable” voices I’ve heard from that side of the debate.

FWIW I don’t see room for compromise on the GC side, there shouldn’t be any males in female spaces.

Woman enters women’s toilets. Hears a man’s voice talking to someone else in there that obviously knows he’s male too. Then it goes silent…..

Think I’d rather he carried on talking if he had decided it was his right to be in there.

The strategy of getting young people on board is backfiring.

Posh Oxbridge twits like Kass and Gluehands are not appealing to anyone other than themselves and their elite in group.

They certainly don't attract sympathy for their claims. I'm not surprised Whittle had a panic over the preview. Although all the moaning about their hard life as a Russell Group university professor, now retired, is ridiculous!

I think many other TW don’t consider how women feel or the impact they have on women when they enter female spaces.
Of course they do they just don't care.

Just had a look at KJW's 'About' page. Guess who pops up with KJW at the 'Respectful Conversation About Gender'?

Katy Montgomerie?

Interesting from KJW on preferred pronouns… they were called “she” in last night’s documentary.

My preferred pronouns are ‘they’ > ‘she’ > ‘he’, in that order; I rarely take offence and am more interested in education and engagement. I surgically transitioned in 2016 and am all the happier for it, loving my now non-binary self, aka a person, to the full.

Yes that's why I've been he/ himming with gay abandon.

So it more of a weedle than a demand. "You don't have to call me she but I do prefer it"