Gender Wars - Channel 4 - 10pm tonight

[chouxchoux]

With the brilliant Kathleen Stock.

Anyone planning to watch?

(Apologies if there’s an existing thread I’ve missed).

The main point is the mention of additional neutral spaces. That's a conversation opener.
Not unless he's using the Gents until these neutral spaces magically appear, otherwise it's just flannel.

Brava 👏👏👏

KJW says that on their website?

What he has written is not only a denial of evolutionary science (many females of many species are equipped to have sex with each other) but breathtakingly homophobic. HOMOPHOBIC.

Just read that thread by Bragg. I've heard that argument made before. But it's nonsense. There's a difference between subjective feelings (which include sexual attraction) and reality (like what sex your body is).

Thank you. That was enlightening.

So from that account from three years ago we know that KJW and co are: strategic, tactical, and opportunistic in their approach to campaigning, and that they carefully curate what they say, according to the audience, in order to garner sympathy and support for their position, and to avoid ‘scaring the horses’.

That would be great, but also unlikely. So I'm not going to waste my energy arguing for it in the short term, when the longer term gain of a wider support for gender neutral spaces seems to be getting closer to being real. I'll accept that I could be wrong, but where is the risk in believing that conversation to make it happen is possible?

where is the risk in believing that conversation to make it happen is possible?

Because you will be beguiled and manipulated into giving away your boundaries. Trans Widows know how these men operate.

But you don't give away your boundaries. Despite how it may appear, I admire you hugely for that. Why do you think I'd give away mine?

But you don't give away your boundaries. Despite how it may appear, I admire you hugely for that. Why do you think I'd give away mine?

Of course I did. Repeatedly.

Being a victim of manipulation and abuse is not a reflection of character or intelligence. It can happen to anyone.

Understood. But you don't give your boundaries away now.
I can't begin to imagine the hurt and betrayal of being in that kind of situation, and learning about boundary setting through being gaslit by someone that was trusted and loved.

But I can imagine now, and the changes that have happened in society since the days when it was so hidden. So much has happened since then, thanks to people like you speaking up. There are lots more voices now and that helps to keep the boundaries firm.

No. You're over confident. There's plenty of evidence just on this thread of women being beguiled into thinking a raging TRA is a "reasonable" "transexual".

Hmm. I don't believe in am. I've heard the call for caution and I welcome the advice. But lots has changed recently in the public conversation.

IMO if we don't engage with others who share a different opinion, such as KJW, we won't move anything forward and we'll just keep shouting at each other. I'm happy to take the "risk" that I'll give away my boundaries. If ever I did, there would now be plenty of people who would put them back in place.

Being a victim of manipulation and abuse is not a reflection of character or intelligence. It can happen to anyone.

This. It really can. Anyone can be manipulated into acting against their own interests by someone they care for or trust. As I also know from experience. The "just world" fallacy suggests that these things only happen to certain people, who've done something wrong, acted like other people don't. It's comforting, but untrue. And it's something IME that women particularly tend to do, because it reassures them that these things (rape, DV, sexual harassment) won't happen to them.

This is of course an entirely hypothetical scenario where we negotiate future trans policy directly with our opponents, but once you give boundaries/rights away, you don't get them back easily- see the GRA and also the protected characteristic of gender reassignment.

Someone who wants to use social pressure to manipulate you into lying about what you see, say by trying to get you to use pronouns like she and her to describe him is someone who needs careful watching and is probably best avoided in my opinion

I agree. I think the comparison between Went and Hayton is apt.

Yes. It is a good example of where people will use pronouns, declare this person some kind of ally, when the reality is rather different.

The reality is that they love the fact they are getting the respect, the centring in the discussion that they have no intention of giving way on at all. So again, women give and this male takes without any reciprocation. Except they women were not abused for talking.

I hate to sound negative (I'm normally such a cheerie fellow), but I'm at a loss as to see where this constructive dialog is gonna go, let alone start.

I believe what we saw on Gender Wars was a false perspective of the potential for narrative.

What's a truer representation is that other Kath Stock event, her Oxford Union talk.

The fact that it's taken a decade for something as anodyne as the programme yesterday to be shown, whereas that show should have been on the TV at least 5 years ago, if not 7.

No, the temperature at fever pitch at Oxford is the true barometer.

There will be no more "dialog" just an era defining battle for rights and pushback, characterised by the law on one hand (ECHR judgement and cases like Forstater and the Tickle case etc), individual bodies adjudication (IOC, British Cycling, prisons policy), politicians trying to define public policy (RSE in schools and gender teaching), and the froth on SM/individuals slugging it out eg LWS, JKR on Twitter, DQSH.

If anyone thinks that a year on from Gender Wars, there'll be committees set up to find compromise between interested parties, don't hold your breath.

This is a civil war that will require 24/7 vigilance from women for the foreseeable.

For every man kept out of women's prisons, there will be a hundred men going into women's toilets the same day.

For every women's elite sports events barred to bio men, there'll be Breeze events welcoming men.

Etc etc. No dialog, just tiring battles.

I think there may be an idea that women can be persuaded to abandon all the rights we've fought for. We should just be kind.

No. Fuck off.

Thanks for so much of what's been posted here. I was inclined to take KJW at face value. Not completely convinced but, you know, prepared to give him the benefit of the doubt. Having read here and then read about him further outside of here, that's a solid nope from me.

Nice to see Bragg outing himself as a total homophobe. Does he honestly think that lesbians think that when they have sex they can make a baby? Is he aware that homosexuality is something that is present across most species of animals on this planet? Is he aware that sometimes sex is about pleasure and not just putting a potential baby in an adult human female's womb? I used to admire that man and he has turned out to be an absolute joke of a human being.

If anyone thinks that a year on from Gender Wars, there'll be committees set up to find compromise between interested parties, don't hold your breath.

100% agree with your post @MouseMinge. I'm only just getting any kind of representation for Trans Widows. There isn't going to be some kind of truth and reconciliation enquiry that includes Mumsnetters, charities, raging TRAs and then Katy Jon and Hayton.

1st paragraph was quoting MouseMinge

I think you were quoting me, good thing I'm not too precious, lol.