Gender Wars - Channel 4 - 10pm tonight

[chouxchoux]

With the brilliant Kathleen Stock.

Anyone planning to watch?

(Apologies if there’s an existing thread I’ve missed).

I reckon a reasonable TRA would be saying

“Men, you need to accept us in your spaces and do better.”etc

Yes. People can be reasonable in manner but unreasonable in what they're saying.

Conflict is unpleasant. Most of us would prefer a quiet life and if someone pops up and offers some concessions often it would seem very attractive to drop hands and meet them in the middle.

I guess women have to have their red lines.

I will not:

Accept coerced speech
Accept males can become women
Accept males in women's single sex spaces
Accept males in women's sport or quotas
Accept children being taught unscientific ideology as fact

I have no obligation whatsoever to budge up, or be kind, or be nice, or consider the feelings of random males I don't know.

No, thank you.

twitter.com/pankhurstem/status/1272131652253294594?s=46&t=PSGltfjrMyZmBtYq2-AVIQ

www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4053058-Debbie-and-Stephanie-Hayton-interview-transcript

Also, don’t the people still have to use Hayton’s pronouns? If Hayton is still teaching , that means students.

I can quite see why posters have reservations about KJW, Hayton, etc; but I still think it's helpful to have TW who want to make a distinction between themselves and the glue-sticking clownfish-obsessers, because it helps to bring the debate very gradually back towards a more reasonable place.

DebbieInBirmingham is* *the username I believe you can search for. If I remember correctly, the last lot of posts would be about ‘breast sizes’.

Again, Hayton has deep knowledge and does do good work in some areas. That cannot be ignored, however, they are also not a friend to feminists and should not be relied on to get this mess sorted so female people are protected.

The "more reasonable place" is still men in women's spaces.

The most reasonable voice I think I’ve heard is Miranda Yardley’s. Miranda is happy to acknowledge biological reality and condemns militant TRAs. Does Miranda use male facilities? If I recall correctly, MY played sport with men?

Last I heard of Hayton on twitter was a while ago, though I've read some articles on the Critic or Unherd. I think there were criticisms about using accommodation at a YWCA hostel.

Yes, the exam eve 'coming out' was Fae not Hayton. Something I find absolutely jaw dropping in its selfish cruelty.

My point exactly, try asking Hayton about Hayton's sexual preferences then about Hayton's advice to NASUWT. You will soon see Hayton's priorities.

Show me a reasonable TW who uses women's loos in a considerate, quiet manner and I'll show you a duplicitous bastard.

Absolutely!

Women are not a shield for mentally ill men.

Men are he ones who need to address male violence in male spaces - women shouldn't be budging up to make room for them.

And I and others have said before, but I will say again: ⬇

Why is it when a man sys "I don't feel safe from these men" everyone jumps to protect them, but when a woman says the same thing she is told she is "bigoted", "transphobic" and "hysterical" and should "be kind."?

And this is despite the facts that statistics show that attacks on TW are vanishingly small, while attacks on women occur daily, and to the extent that 3 are killed every week on average in Britain.

TW is the safest demographic in the UK. THE SAFEST.

It makes no odds how lovely or well behaved a male is as they use a female facility.

When they walk in, some females have to walk out.

Some females have to go without access and services at all to permit a male to have freedom of choice and self actualisation.

You can only be ok with this if you believe it is ok for females to have nothing and be excluded so long as male self actualisation and happiness and freedom is achieved.

Which would make you a male supremacist.

I expect a lovely, reasonable, well behaved male to care about those females and to want facilities that work for them as well as themselves. Because if they are happy for females to suffer so long as their needs are met? They are not lovely. Or reasonable.

What exactly is reasonable about KJW using the women’s when he knows it has the potential to frighten and distress women? The original argument was that TW were so delicate and fragile and passed so well that they would be unsafe in the men’s. There is no way you’d mistake KJW for a woman, he looked like a roadie, he’d be safe to use the men’s without any heightened fear of violence than any other bloke. So what’s the reasoning for using the women’s toilets other than it makes his penis go up?

If these men and other trans really cared, they'd ask for, nay insist on, third spaces. If society really cared for trans, politicians would push for third spaces. If corporations/venues really cared for trans, they'd provide third spaces.

But of course, all that TRAs, politicians and capitalists care about is making women unhappy and marginalised, sounding off to their activist echo chamber that they're protecting a new marginalised minority, and trying to score corporate/social/equity points with their new Gen Z customer base.

It occurs to me that one would think Linda Bellos is a woman who wouldn't be easily manipulated, but she's been used to Katy Jon's agenda to be seen as the new Reasonable Transsexual.

Why is it when a man sys "I don't feel safe from these men" everyone jumps to protect them, but when a woman says the same thing she is told she is "bigoted", "transphobic" and "hysterical" and should "be kind."?

That's the killer, for me. Why is a man's fear/discomfort seen as something that we must rearrange society to assuage, while a woman's fear/discomfort is something that the woman must deal with/get over/live with/'re-educate' herself out of?

Male fear - something is terribly wrong
Female fear - this woman is hysterical/prejudiced

Or:
Male fear - something is terribly wrong
Female fear - women have feelings?

News just in showing, what a surprise, Katy Jon is exactly like all other Trans widows exes.

twitter.com/transwidows/status/1664272015124221954?s=46&t=PSGltfjrMyZmBtYq2-AVIQ

The Decapitate TERFs crowd are very useful. They demonstrate what TRAs will do next if the "reasonable" TRAs don't manage to get women to capitulate.

You will never talk any of the male people in this situation into permitting female only spaces, services and resources to continue to exist.

The only 'compromise' that would ever be considered is how much ground women will cede (this time, salami slice tactics). What are men offering in this to women? Compromise involves BOTH SIDES.

Women have already compromised. It was called the GRA. Men have fucked it and women over comprehensively.

You will never talk any of the male people in this situation into permitting female only spaces, services and resources to continue to exist.

And I just re read what I'd written - there it is in a nutshell.

Men believe they are the owners of the spaces and get to define what women are, what women may do and have, what needs women may expect to be met and which are unreasonable demands on the boss class with penises.

This is the issue right here.

Negotiating nicely is enabling this faulty, dysfunctional and highly prejudiced view of women. What is required is tough boundaries.

Good lord. Yesterday tinsel said please do not be grateful for crumbs, and she's absolutely right.

Who gives a flying fuck what men with a sexual fetish think about exactly which of them should or shouldn't be given access to women spaces?

We cant possibly be giving them house room just because they're not coming at us with barbed wire wrapped baseball bats.

I know it's something of a Hobson's choice, given on the one hand you've got idealogically captured zealots without a rational thought in their head claiming we're responsible for genocide and on the other you've got cynical, middle-aged males with a sexual fetish, who enjoy violating women's boundaries.

But what they think is completely irrelevant.

They're not making the laws and policies, they're not the head of the EHRC, or the Ministry of Justice, or sitting in parliament voting on laws.

And, of bloody course, they are willing to concede stuff like sport and rape refuges. It sounds sensible and like a concession. But it's only because they have no use of those spaces.

I still can't get over how Katy Jon Went actually thinks a concession is to stop talking while they are secretly hiding in the women's toilet 🙄

And yes, Debbie Hayton, very cleverly concedes all manner of things, except the one thing that Debbie wants, which is women's toilets. Debbie wrote the guidelines for schools when Debbie was teaching in a school which involves the children calling transwomen miss and males having access to the female loos. That's never been rescinded.

And yes, Debbie is so out of touch with what it means to be a woman, they think that women grade other women on the size of their breasts. The bigger the boob, the higher social cachet you have amongst your peers.

Have a think about why, exactly, a self-confessed AGP has concluded that the woman with the biggest breasts must be the envy of all her peers.

(Quite apart from anything else, has Hayton never even seen a cat walk?).