Transitioning man in the womens open changing room and communal showers at local swimming pool

[mummymeister]

I have been following the debates on trans men in women only spaces with interest. But, because I live in a very rural area in the back of beyond, I mistakenly thought it wouldnt be something that I had to deal with. However, today at our local pool, at the early morning lane swimming session, a person who was obviously a man in a costume with stubble and hairy chest came into the womens changing room which is open with no cubicle options and into the open shower, again no cubicle options. Almost 100% of the women at the early morning swim shower with no costume on, including me. We did politely suggest that he should use either the family room that has a shower or the limited mobility room that also has a shower. both would be empty early morning as no children allowed etc. Other than asking the company that owns the pool (ex Local authority swimming pool) what else can I do if this happens again. He was adamant he had every right to do this and several women just wrapped themselves in towels and left. any suggestions? I am struggling to see how the feelings and rights of one person trump those of the 8/10 of us using the facility this morning.

If you can bring yourself to look at him in his costume, it should be obvious whether you’ve been lied to about the surgery. Riley Dennis has been brave enough to talk in public about L. Thomas’ erections, as was the courageous woman in Wi Spa. I fully understand your reluctance and that of the other women, but we all need to learn to react with justifiable outrage and not fear. These men rely on that fear, as are the staff who are ignoring your rights. They know he’s going to kick up a fuss. We need to learn to do the same.

As an alternative possibility, are there any men swimming at that time? Can you get into discussion with the other women? It might be time to restart the ManFriday campaign. If a group of you can agree to meet at the same time and all identify as men on the same day, you certainly demonstrate to the management that you are going to make their lives impossible if they don’t do something.

The layout sounds a lot like the layout of the pool that M. Snow, transactivist, started using earlier this year. If it is indeed Snow, forewarned is better than ignorance.

Yeah.

"I believe in inclusion so let me in!"

"But you're excluding women by doing that. Can't we find answers that work for everyone, because you believe in inclusion?"

"No. I just want what I want. I don't care about anyone else. I only said 'inclusion' because you're a nice person who is easy to manipulate with words and ideas like that."

The “chickened out” part of that message is telling. That’s a clear indication of knowing that space is not the appropriate one. If met by Wi Spa woman making a fuss, first time, every time, the behavior might have been stopped.

This is the social contract that we used to have being broken down because of the government and politicians and law changes telling these men that they now have those rights. It started with the genuinely transitioning, now we’ve moved on to cross dressers and it’s going to get worse.

As has been said before, nobody needs to check genitals on the way into women’s spaces. We need instead to reinstate that social contract where it was fully accepted that any man invading women’s spaces was an acknowledged pervert.

i bet they have asked if they have had surgery and been fully reassigned and told yes and thats the end of their involvement. i have written back and asked if they have seen a copy of the gender reassignment certificate. what else can i do other than this.

I wonder if this was a case of them asking a question and that question being sidestepped and a different question answered. They likely asked if the man had had surgery and he answered by saying that he had a GRC, but without making it clear that he hadn't had any surgery, leaving them to assume that's what he meant.

Aside from the confusion that many people have about whether a transwoman is a man presenting as a 'woman' or a woman presenting as a 'man', I'd say that the public as a whole simply don't realise that the vast, vast majority of 'transitioners' make no bodily changes at all, other than maybe growing their hair longer. They wouldn't believe that somebody can just say "I identify as X" and then that is what they 'become'. Not that any of this makes him any less biologically male, mind.

Think about it: why would he go to all the effort of having cosmetic surgery to make him superficially look 'more female' and then not even bother to shave his face or his body? If he clearly isn't convinced that he himself is now 'female'-presenting, why should anybody else be?

Actually, the Equalities Act specifically states that even someone with a GRC (for which you need to have NO surgery or hormones or anything) can be excluded from single-sex provision if this is "a proportionate means for a legitimate aim."

Sex Matters are your go to for this! THey have loads of useful resources.

Trouble is Trans feel they are the only ones that matter and stomp all over biological women's rights and currently they are supported by hand maidens and people who buy into their crap that they need more protection than women who actually are the victims of more crime. Trans women seem to think that being around real women is ok and swinging the meat and 2 veg around where women are naked is ok. Sadly these issues are dumped in the sex and gender area of MN since it's not considered important enough for all to see and debate.

Yes. Hard agree with Arabella on this.

But it does of course, depend on your wish to do all these things.

Compounded by the fact that when you say no to a male who is very determined to get the wanted goal for themselves and loudly doesn't care about women except on how said male wishes to make use of them, that male gets loudly, scarily angry.

Often backed up by a mob of raging, shouting umbrellas with a big social media presence and lots of shouting about 'the law'. Much of which is based on selective personal reality, but it's very convincing if you don't know the facts.

We're at the point where the general public is starting to realise this, along with the total unreasonability, the absolute fuck all care for anyone else's needs, and the behaviour and distortion of facts involved. It's drip drip drip, but every situation like this wakes up more people. We will eventually reach a reasonable point of 'here is our mixed sex accessible provision for those who do not feel able to access the provision for their biological sex. You may not use the female only provision as it is for biological females who require it for their access and inclusion. You are not more important than they are. And screaming, threats, punching people and waving umbrellas will not get you your own way.'

As far as this sort of thing goes, if we can't persuade them to use the exemptions in the EA I wonder if we can get them on trade description laws. If it says 'women's' the majority of people will think that means single sex. If it's not, then you're deceiving people. At the very least clear signage is required so that women know what they and their children are getting into and can vote with their wallet and feet.

Can you all go and shower in your swimming costumes in the men's changing room just to make a point? Get men involved. If they complain about women invading their space maybe someone in management will get the point.

Queue to use the family changing room? Don't give this man the opportunity to get his rocks off in any way.

Get the local press involved.

I really do appreciate that it might be unpleasant to be called 'bigots' but if you all stick to your guns it'll be easier - and you'll be helping other women and girls to put an end to this crap.

Please contact Sex Matters. Also the EHRC have a contact number for enquiries which is open to anyone to call.

Sorry I haven't read the full thread, so you have probably already been told this, but it's irrelevant whether he has had 'full reassignment surgery' or not. He is clearly male, and the pool management are entitled to use the sex based exemptions in the Equality Act for the legitimate aim of ensuring the safety, privacy and dignity of their female customers.
If they are choosing NOT to do this, and thus not providing their female customers with a single sex changing room, they may be discriminating against women who do not want to use a mixed sex changing room.
I would think if lots of women complain together it strengthens the case that it is the MAN they need to make alternative arrangements for, and not the women who object.

Yes. We’ve been so conditioned into not making a fuss, that we have forgotten how effective a fuss can be.

Is it a mixed sex swimming session? Because I think if all the women scream, quite a lot of the men will come to see what’s wrong ( and they may not like what they see).

Why not?if they have nothing to hide, why should they mind you taking a picture, not of him of course, of the woman behind him and he just got in the way.

oh Op , I really feel,for you and for all the other women who are being driven out of their perfectly legitimate activities by these pricks.

from what I could see, and I didnt spend a lot of time staring either at the chest or genital region, this was a man with chest hair, stubble etc at the start of their transitioning journey.

People I've known who were transitioning M to F, were always very particular about clean-shaving their face, hairy chest/legs/back etc.

Maybe what you saw was a F to M transitioner .

I have had it confirmed by the pool that he is a male to female transitioner. this is a small public swimming pool in the back of beyond in a very rural area. my husband swims and will be fully supportive of whatever I do but most other people will just not want to get involved for fear of doing the wrong thing/being out of touch/being called bigots. thats how it is outside of the cities. In a fair world I would be fully supported by the other women involved and the management would understand my issue and ask this person to change and shower elsewhere. but unless you live in one of these small rural and slightly backward type communities its really difficult to understand how things are. I hate that I cant be more assertive and I am annoyed that I dont feel able to confront him directly. but I am more annoyed at the ambiguity of the law that puts the wants and desires of one group way above another. I also am cross at the politicians who wont get off the fence and make clear statements about things like communal changing rooms at swimming pools.

You are very brave @mummymeister but you should be confident in the fact that the Equalities Act specifically states that there is NO hierarchy of protected characteristics.

Your PC of sex is as worthy of respect and inclusion as his PC of gender reassignment.

And furthermore because women constitute the vast majority of victims of sexual assault and men are 98% of the perpetrators, there is a recognition in the EA that there may be situations where a man undergoing gender reassignment may be lawfully excluded from women’s single sex spaces.

What you’re experiencing is the pernicious influence of Stonewall in pretending that self ID is the law in the UK. It is not.

Sympathies OP. I've no wise advice and appreciate that insisting you take action in a small community can be counter productive. After all the brave woman who challenged this male predator with a similar disrespect for women and girls had to endure months of harassment until the inevitable conclusion:

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11555915/Transgender-pervert-arrested-15-months-exposed-women-Wi-Spa-LA.html

I'm not surprised you're not comfortable confronting him - not many women would be.

However this doesn't mean there's nothing you can do.

You have many options.

Police
Sex Matters
Lawyers
Media
Councillors
Organise with other women locally

Weird how someone can have such extreme discomfort over your body that they require the NHS to surgically alter it at public expense, and yet have no problem taking all their clothes off in front of other people.

*over their body !

I just wanted to say, like others, how sorry I am that you're having to deal with this @mummymeister, but also how very grateful I am for the steps you've taken, however you choose to proceed from now on. Good luck.

Adding to others, good luck and sorry you are having to deal with this. I know how important a local pool is to people's wellbeing and being told by management that you have to now accept a man showering with you in the women's change rooms is unimaginably disturbing, and never would have happened previously. These people just want an easy life and it's chilling to see how happy they are to throw away women's dignity in the process.

I know from having a very large trans woman standing behind me in a basement toilet of a bar how upsetting it is to have a space you once assumed was single sex suddenly taken away, and to know that speaking up will get you shunned or told you are the one being 'unkind'. That was just a bar I never went back to, this is your local pool so far more important.

It's such gaslighting BS and don't these men just love it.

I hope there is a way that you can find to win back this space that doesn't cause you any problems in your community.

In the meantime, you could take a robe you can change under, shower in your bathers and refuse to acknowledge his existence or presence - the last thing he needs is any kind of validation.

most other people will just not want to get involved for fear of doing the wrong thing/being out of touch/being called bigots. thats how it is outside of the cities

This isn't a rural/city issue. It's just as bad in cities. You can still contact local councillors, see if fair play for women, sex matters, wpuk etc will help with supporting you. See if there is a women's rights network, resisters or sfw liocal in the area, they might be able to help.

Best of luck.