Transitioning man in the womens open changing room and communal showers at local swimming pool

[mummymeister]

I have been following the debates on trans men in women only spaces with interest. But, because I live in a very rural area in the back of beyond, I mistakenly thought it wouldnt be something that I had to deal with. However, today at our local pool, at the early morning lane swimming session, a person who was obviously a man in a costume with stubble and hairy chest came into the womens changing room which is open with no cubicle options and into the open shower, again no cubicle options. Almost 100% of the women at the early morning swim shower with no costume on, including me. We did politely suggest that he should use either the family room that has a shower or the limited mobility room that also has a shower. both would be empty early morning as no children allowed etc. Other than asking the company that owns the pool (ex Local authority swimming pool) what else can I do if this happens again. He was adamant he had every right to do this and several women just wrapped themselves in towels and left. any suggestions? I am struggling to see how the feelings and rights of one person trump those of the 8/10 of us using the facility this morning.

Basically the body is still male or female, down to cellular level. Because humans can't change sex, any more than any other mammal.

This is, of course, the simple truth; but even if it were theoretically possible to actually change sex, why would amending one or two focal features to roughly cosmetically resemble actual organs that your sex doesn't have rule that you now are that other sex? What about all the other distinct markers of the sex that you are not? If we're going for the 'gotcha' points, a transwoman would also need to have a uterus, ovaries, fallopian tubes and ALL other female-specific organs/body parts installed.

I couldn't just say "leopards have spots" or "zebras have stripes" and thus paint them on my body and claim that makes me into one, conveniently ignoring all of the other many human features that I would still have, which a leopard or zebra never would.

Like with the 'sex and gender are NOT the same thing OR sex and gender ARE the same thing - depending on what suits any one of our particular arguments better at any time', we're constantly told that we're being reductive and bigoted to take genitals as the only marker of a person's sex.

Therefore, for somebody who has had some kind of cosmetic surgery, the same thing must still hold true: that a man who has had his penis removed and a wound very vaguely resembling a vagina on the surface in its place is still the same man that he always was. A man suffering from penile cancer who genuinely has to have his penis removed does not become a woman; a woman who has a hysterectomy does not become a man.

It seems that the people who are widely accused of being the narrow-minded genital-obsessed bigots and the people who ARE demonstrably the narrow-minded genital-obsessed bigots may very well not be the same groups of people at all.

I wonder how many men in Afghanistan under the Taliban want to be women?

Well, isn't it the case in Iran that there are many trans-identified men? They are actually homosexual, but Iranian law is absolutely medieval in its treatment of gay men. So the effeminate homosexual (one of Ray Blanchard's categories of trans-identfied men) in Iran can camoflauge as a transwoman, and enjoy sex/relationships with other men, without fear of execution for homosexuality.

Provided that they undergo SRS or whatever the current abbreviation is.

Afghanistan is not Iran though.

They are both oppressive but would a man in Afghanistan want to stay inside all the time and only be allowed out in a burqa in the company of husband/dad/unc;e/brother and hope said aforementioned does not die leaving them alone with no way of leaving the house without being arrested and executed?

Good points @Dalekjastninerels and goes to the more general point that trans-identifed men rarely take over all the shit work women do.

Hope you have an enjoyable swim in the morning op

Thank you Everywitchwaybutloose and totally; they want the good things about being a woman but have not suffered as women.

Not saying men always have it easy, but even now women get the shitty end of the stick.

Man in Afghanistan ( for example) oppressed but can leave the house to work and go to the shops on his own. His life is restricted but not as much as the woman next door

Woman who lives there has a husband and a three year old son. She is worried that her husband who works in construction may be injured and how will they manage? She can't go out alone without being arrested by the Taliban.

So why would the man want to be a woman?

Yet they do. Some transwomen are happy to throw abuse at lesbians in particular - because we don’t want to sleep with them - although it’s more ‘Choke on my big girldick T**f Bigot!’ than ‘lady penis’ 😏

A man in a leotard turned up to our early morning swim in Camberwell, London via the women's changing rooms last year. He used the open shower in the women's changing room afterward. It too is an mostly open space with just a couple of cubicles.

For context, there is a 'gender neutral' changing facility (complete with all separate cubicles) in addition to a men's. This man chose the women- only space.

To add insult, directly after the morning 'adults only' swim, school children come in for their lessons, meaning adults and school kids share the open changing room space for a time. This is a safeguarding nightmare all of its own, without men sharing spaces of undress with vulnerable school girls.

I made my feelings known repeatedly to staff, to the teachers that accompany the girls into the changing rooms, and to the council. Absolutely no action was taken. Staff could only tell me "Oh, it's all this political correctness stuff, isn't it?".

It's not good enough. We're not fetishistic fodder for these creeps. Nobody cares. What the F is wrong with everybody? 😡

This was Everyone Active, by the way. I've stopped going altogether.

That's dreadful, Segat111. "Everyone Active" eh? Seems it means males can just get up to all sorts of activities for which they have a penchant. For females, they should at least highlight that women and girls have to pay the extra cost of being on show for male voyeurism, or/and indecent exposure.

Eroding the boundaries of those girls, and normalising that men can do whatever they want.

I think calling the police may be a better way of approaching it. A male using a women's open shower sounds like at least one sexual offense to me.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12042535/San-Diego-YMCA-spends-70-000-rebuilding-locker-rooms-transgender-policy-controversy.html

Sort of relevant to the topic if anyone remembers the situation in the US last year.

UPDATE* So this morning I went for my swim a bit later than usual and as I was coming out of the changing room, which has one of those double door arrangements, I was fussing with my pocket to find my keys, held the outer door open and the man went in giving a cheery, deep voiced good morning. I did not feel able to confront him so went upstairs to the reception area where there was no one on duty. you can check in to the centre just using your phone so this isnt unusual. I was in a hurry, shouted for someone a few times but had to leave. I now know what time they checked in, there was no one else doing this, so have directly contacted the management to make this known yet again. I have suggested that they put up signage as I know having chatted to a few more women this morning many of them feel awkward about saying something as they dont know what the law is, dont want to be seen as bigots etc. The centre management need to put some signage up at reception so that the situation when checking in is crystal clear. Its makes me so uncomfortable to have to be the one to challenge this and instead I am just feeling more and more anxious about swimming here. Also, feeling so cross at myself for not having the courage to do more as I know many on here would be able to and wish I was more like you.

FFS OP! I'm so bloody fucking sorry. Have you considered calling hte police or reporting online?

many of them feel awkward about saying something as they dont know what the law is, dont want to be seen as bigots

The law on voyeurism and exhibitionism is clear - these are illegal sex crimes.

The Equality Act is not clear, I agree, but it makes provision for single sex spaces where these are proportionate means to a legitimate aim.

Women not wanting a naked male in their changing room is a legitimate aim; asking this male to change elsewhere is a proportionate response.

Also, feeling so cross at myself for not having the courage to do more as I know many on here would be able to and wish I was more like you.

Please don't be hard on yourself, complaining to the management about this man is absolutely the right thing to do and you're brave for standing up and doing that while others remain quiet.

I wouldn't confront directly either, considering how violent and stalkery many of these men are, it's important to speak out but also to keep yourself safe from their rage at being told NO.

Also, you are sensible not to confront this man. I wouldn't do that, either. Your safety is of utmost importance, and this man is clearly deliberately transgressing women's boundaries. Above all, don't let yourself feel bad about this. IT IS NOT YOUR FAULT a male has decided to invade women's spaces.

IME most swimming pools have had mixed sex changing rooms with cubicles for decades. OPs pool will have to go down that route now.

What is this parallel universe occupied by some ppl on FWR where all the changing rooms at swimming pools are mixed sex and have been for like ever

It would be preferable to have unisex changing rooms than to have the current situation, unless the management are going to either make the situation very clear to all users, or take action against the person causing the issue.

As I said in my original post this is an old ex local authority pool. its in desperate need of a refit but no one shouts about this because the others in our area were simply shut down and the land sold off for housing. No money has been spent on it for years. I have just spoken to someone at head office (because the centre doesnt have its own phone number) and asked for the centre manager to call me directly to talk about this. its not a huge busy place they will know who this person is because they were the only person checking in at this time.

OP, can I suggest you communicate via email and get everything in writing? If you have a call, make notes, email a copy to them and get them to confirm the conversation went as you've noted.

OP - I can imagine you are nervous about this, it is a difficult situation and I admire the fact that you are doing it. You probably need some support so why not contact Sex Matters via email. If they can’t help I am sure they will know someone who can. There are organisations that know how to handle these situations in a professional and legal way which I think would help you.

I have some work to do now but will wait until this afternoon and if the centre havent called to discuss by then, then I will take up your advice Justme56. Thank you ArabellaScott I have put everything in writing and been keeping notes of every incidence or call including names of people. This is just making me so anxious about going back to the pool.

OP I know exactly what you mean by the changing room layout. All the pools near me are the same, ex-LA and open plan, no money for refurbishment.

However, even cubicles does not entitle men to use women's facilities and I can't believe anyone is even suggesting that.