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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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Original poster

Transitioning man in the womens open changing room and communal showers at local swimming pool

207 replies

mummymeister · 03/05/2023 11:21

I have been following the debates on trans men in women only spaces with interest. But, because I live in a very rural area in the back of beyond, I mistakenly thought it wouldnt be something that I had to deal with. However, today at our local pool, at the early morning lane swimming session, a person who was obviously a man in a costume with stubble and hairy chest came into the womens changing room which is open with no cubicle options and into the open shower, again no cubicle options. Almost 100% of the women at the early morning swim shower with no costume on, including me. We did politely suggest that he should use either the family room that has a shower or the limited mobility room that also has a shower. both would be empty early morning as no children allowed etc. Other than asking the company that owns the pool (ex Local authority swimming pool) what else can I do if this happens again. He was adamant he had every right to do this and several women just wrapped themselves in towels and left. any suggestions? I am struggling to see how the feelings and rights of one person trump those of the 8/10 of us using the facility this morning.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
7
ArabeIIaScott · 03/05/2023 14:26

You can report it online. Ways to do so at the bottom of this article:

https://www.police.uk/ro/report/rsa/alpha-v1/advice/rape-sexual-assault-and-other-sexual-offences/voyeurism-upskirting/

WeBuiltThisBuffetOnSausageRoll · 03/05/2023 14:27

If he insists that he cannot use the men's changing rooms, but also refuses to use the family/single person room, then that is proof positive that he is a predator - a male demanding to have access to a facility designated for females only to change and shower.

Either he identifies as a man - in which case he obviously uses the men's facilities - or he identifies as a transwoman, which he may well cite as 'proof' of discrimination, if he is told not to use the women's facilities. If he identifies as a transwoman, then that is an acknowledgement that he has a male body, hence the unwillingness of females to have him in their facilities. The clue is in the 'trans' part that a transwoman is not the same as a woman, otherwise there would be no need for two different words. And if he claims that he doesn't identify as trans, then he is thus acknowledging that he cannot be discriminated against for being something that he is admittedly not.

ArabeIIaScott · 03/05/2023 14:27

And if you don't want to go directly to the police, there are other options:

https://www.police.uk/ro/report/rsa/alpha-v1/advice/rape-sexual-assault-and-other-sexual-offences/rape-sexual-assault-support/

TiredOfCleaning · 03/05/2023 14:32

I'm following closely because I also swim in the early mornings and have wondered what I / the pool / other swimmers would do in this situation.

Best of luck OP

RoaringtoLangClegintheDark · 03/05/2023 14:36

LlynTegid · 03/05/2023 14:16

I think you should be contacting the pool now. You can explain to them why you did not raise it at the time (shock/surprise), if they ask.

Seconded

Brisland · 03/05/2023 14:40

@WomaninBoots , @Woman2023 - I absolutely agree that male = man = however they identify. I was just concerned that if the OP goes in with incorrect terminology, it could murky the waters by adding to the tension.

RoaringtoLangClegintheDark · 03/05/2023 14:45

Voyeurism is when someone gets sexual pleasure from watching, photographing or recording others doing something that's usually private, for example when they're naked or having sex.

Voyeurism is an offence if it is done without the person's permission. The offence includes photographing or filming others for someone else's sexual pleasure.

Hm. So you have to prove he was doing it to get sexual pleasure from it? This is not victim friendly. The impact on the victim is the same whether he’s doing it for sexual pleasure or as a means of control or asserting his power/dominance in the situation, or just using the women for his own validation.

The net result is that a male (stranger) has knowingly put himself in a position where he could look at/see women who were naked when they did not consent to it. That should be the legal test for voyeurism, not the man’s intention.

Seems to me to be an example of the way the law is written from not from the POV of the (female) victims of a crime but from that of the (male) perpetrators. Something it would be worth addressing, I think.

Crumpleton · 03/05/2023 14:47

IMO until either sex has fully gone from man to woman and vice versa it should be law that they stick to charging rooms/toilets of the gender they were born with.
No one with a penis should be allowed to enter facilities that are for women only unless they are a young child with their mother/carer.

Chersfrozenface · 03/05/2023 14:52

Crumpleton · 03/05/2023 14:47

IMO until either sex has fully gone from man to woman and vice versa it should be law that they stick to charging rooms/toilets of the gender they were born with.
No one with a penis should be allowed to enter facilities that are for women only unless they are a young child with their mother/carer.

No-one can go from man to woman or vice versa.

Humans cannot change sex. Humans are mammals and mammals cannot change sex.

The most humans can do is change some aspects of their body's appearance. They remain the sex they were conceived and born.

Mummyoflittledragon · 03/05/2023 14:52

mummymeister · 03/05/2023 12:08

from what I could see, and I didnt spend a lot of time staring either at the chest or genital region, this was a man with chest hair, stubble etc at the start of their transitioning journey. i honestly have no idea whether they had a penis or not and did not see any breasts just a male looking chest. I cant "clarify the birth sex" any more than this. as I said, everyone was a bit shocked. I now understand that is something I should do next time this occurs. Just to be clear, the family changing room is a single room with a door and a shower in it. so only can be used by one family or one individual at a time. the same is true of the mobility impaired room - its a single room with a shower in it and a changing room. some of our ladies who have had breast surgery use them until they are comfortable enough to come back to the main open room. This is an adults only early morning lane swimming session for competent swimmers. no under 18's and a separate session is run for those who are mobility impaired.

As a disabled woman, please don’t ask the centre to suggest the room for mobility impaired. These facilities were hard won and if the room is re designated in the morning, it will likely be later in the day as well. The ladies, who’ve undergone surgery should use that room. Cancer is covered under the EA2010 as a disability.

I hope you manage to get the centre to see sense.

Original poster
mummymeister · 03/05/2023 15:27

mummyoflittledragon i was not suggesting in any way that the mobility impaired or family changing rooms should be permenantly designated for this purpose. just that in the situation i was in, here was somone who had just been in for a swim, was wet and needed to shower and change and I just wanted to offer some other alternative.

OP posts:
anyolddinosaur · 03/05/2023 15:33

Did he tell you he was transitioning or did he just put a woman's costume on? Seems to me you have no evidence that he was anything other than a voyeur, whatever he claims he is.

There is a family changing room that will not be used for early morning swims as no children are allowed. He can either use the male changing room or the family changing room. His only reason for being in a female changing room is to cause distress and you need to point that out to the management. If this is a commercial company point out that they may lose 8 -10 regular swimmers by pandering to one male.

MMAMPWGHAP · 03/05/2023 15:47

Thanks for this post OP. I attend a similar early morning swim session and have pondered what I would do in similar circumstances.
My plan now is:

  1. Scream loudly.
  2. Announce to the whole pool that there’s a man in the women’s changing room.
  3. Go dripping wet to reception and encourage as many women as possible to follow me. The wetter the better.
Sevenbells · 03/05/2023 15:51

MMAMPWGHAP I think really loud screaming would be very cathartic in that situation. I am going to do the same if it ever happens to me.

SirVixofVixHall · 03/05/2023 15:55

Chersfrozenface · 03/05/2023 12:54

OP, I would gently remind you that men don't ever have to make any physical changes to their body at all to get official documents with a female marker or, often, to "identify as" women and persuade venues that they can use women's spaces.

In physical terms, there may well be no "transitioning journey" whatsoever.

Unless facilities like this stick to the Equality Act and keep biological men out of areas designated for women, for good reason, those areas will be mixed sexm

I was about to post similar.

Jezzz · 03/05/2023 17:52

WallaceinAnderland · 03/05/2023 14:14

You have the right to a single sex space, as laid out in the EA. Women are NOT obliged to accept a male in a space where they are dressing or undressing.

Please do NOT let this stop you from swimming or exercise. It's outrageous.

This! Bloody hell, the nerve of the man. Entitled, arrogant arsehole.

Sadly, I have to point out that that is not the case

Organsiations have a right, if they decide to, to provide single sex spaces where appropriate. They are under no obligation to do so

PriOn1 · 03/05/2023 18:31

In the end, unless there’s someone super-woke in charge, it’s probably going to come down to who makes most fuss. These men are very inclined to make a fuss. Hopefully you and the other women can make it clear that you are quite capable of making more.

Boiledbeetle · 03/05/2023 18:33

Jezzz · 03/05/2023 17:52

Sadly, I have to point out that that is not the case

Organsiations have a right, if they decide to, to provide single sex spaces where appropriate. They are under no obligation to do so

Show quote history

And if there are two changing rooms one marked men's and one marked women's you would assume the single sex exemption is in place. Otherwise they would have unisex on the door.

Jezzz · 03/05/2023 18:45

You can't assume that - it will depend on the pools policy. It might be easier, but again not necessarily, if they are marked male and female

WallaceinAnderland · 03/05/2023 18:57

Of course they are supplying separate sex changing rooms. It's obvious as there are no cubicles.

Cailleach1 · 03/05/2023 19:03

Boiledbeetle · 03/05/2023 12:26

I see the men can be women, women can be men and no one can tell the difference posters are out in force across the threads this week.

Ain't that the truth. I'm sure the women were shocked for no reason whatsoever. How could an adult women be expected to correctly sex a human being? It's not like many of us actually grow humans, or raise them. I'm surprised that many women had successfully found their way into the women's. Rather than randomly following men (who they had mistaken for women) into their changing area.

JanesLittleGirl · 03/05/2023 19:11

The problem is using silhouettes instead of words. There are two sets of facilities: one for people in skirts or dresses and one for people in trousers.

Cailleach1 · 03/05/2023 19:13

MMAMPWGHAP · 03/05/2023 15:47

Thanks for this post OP. I attend a similar early morning swim session and have pondered what I would do in similar circumstances.
My plan now is:

  1. Scream loudly.
  2. Announce to the whole pool that there’s a man in the women’s changing room.
  3. Go dripping wet to reception and encourage as many women as possible to follow me. The wetter the better.

2 or 3 were what happened in WiSpa. At reception, the staff said they couldn't (or wouldn't) do anything about what turned out to be a male sex offender in the women's section. Seemingly the offender placed himself (in a state of 'semi-excitement' if the complain is correct) very near a young girl.

To boot, some horrible man started calling the complainant 'a dick'. I suspect he was delighted he could spew his invective at women under the cover of supporting this ideology. Actually, this ideology seems (to me) to be all about men spewing at women (and children).

Boiledbeetle · 03/05/2023 19:14

Jezzz · 03/05/2023 18:45

You can't assume that - it will depend on the pools policy. It might be easier, but again not necessarily, if they are marked male and female

Oh but as customar I can assume that. And I will. And I'll bloody shout at any man i see in a women's toilets.