"Lesbians being anti-trans is a lesbophobic trope"

[MerlinsLostMarbles]

https://www.gaytimes.co.uk/originals/lesbians-are-not-anti-trans/

I think this helps give another viewpoint to the "gay people are anti-trans" trope that is often used by the LGB-Alliance and Julie Bindel etc.

Lesbians often have to put up with harmful stereotypes that may deter them from coming out, and in recent years the "lesbians are anti-trans" is another stereotype on top of the existing ones.

'Terfs and trolls' - homosexual females refusing to provide free sex work to males on command. Or to at least convincingly pretend that they would in theory.

😂

Nah mate.

Females are allowed a sexual preference too. And to walk around in a body that they do plan to let a man use. Whatever that man wishes to do in terms of transition or self definition or body modification.

Because female lives do not revolve around male ones, and they are not walking sex resources.

It’s quite interesting that we have a poster very actively resisting being described as bisexual rather than her preferred definition of lesbian. Why is expanding and changing the well established definition of lesbian (as female same-sex attracted) to allow you to be attracted to biological males (however they dress or do their hair, and whatever name they use) the answer, rather than just thinking: oh, I guess I’m bisexual?

what would be wrong with being bisexual?

Why do you need to redefine the existing categories, rather than just accepting you fit better in a different one than you’d thought?

Why all this effort so that biological males attracted to biological females can avoid accepting that’s just heterosexuality?

I think it's more 'interesting' that posters are trying to tell an anonymous woman what her sexuality is.

That she's not allowed to call herself a lesbian despite being attracted to women for decades and having ONE relationship with a male born person who presented and passed as female and (I assume from her description) had breasts and a neo-vagina.

Just bonkers.

Uh huh...this is the same nonsense of the ' what if someone passed' kind. What if 'I had sex one time with a transwoman (man)'

Don't even engage, it's simply an attempt to breach our same-sex boundaries.

NO

I am more conflicted about those “transmen” formerly known as lesbians who are still hanging around with lesbians while claiming to be boys or men. Totally clear about males of any description violating precious lesbian space and I will actively try to prevent them doing so. I no longer care about being called bigot or terf. They are my boundaries and I will continue to guard them . I do feel resentment when other lesbians invite others to break down the boundaries.

Of course it's okay! I absolutely wasn't saying it's not okay. I'm just saying it doesn't always happen like that, because that's not how attraction works for a lot of people.

I think lesbians should be able to say 'no trans women for me please' and not be able to be labelled as bigots. I also think lesbians should be able to say 'yeah I'd date a beautiful, well passing trans women', especially if she's post-op, and not be told she's no longer welcome in the lesbian community.

There's nothing wrong with being bisexual, I'm just not.

It's so ironic that this conversation about how lesbians shouldn't be forced to like dick, has turned into telling a lesbian (me) that she should call herself bisexual. Is that so different to telling me that I should maybe try dick? The hypocrisy is astounding.

The 'I can call myself a lesbian while not actually being homosexual' is the wedge that's led to homosexual women being driven out of pride and harangued for not doing men as part of lesbianism.

Your personal choosy choices have impact on others. Your identity preferences lead directly to homophobia being 'ok' because 'don't be mean'.

This whole 'I'm just being me' while walking over other people really has got to stop.

That scenario only works if the man still finds the transwoman attractive once they know that they are biologically a man.

If they are still attracted and would pursue a relationship I would definitely argue that they were bisexual or at least curious.

If they aren't still attracted then they were fooled by the fleeting outward appearance in the moment and remain heterosexual.

It's not all that complicated.

A male body with boobs and an artificial vagina and long hair, is still a male body.

Lesbianism is attraction to female people. The whole package of exclusive attraction to female people. The 'but if the male looked like this and this and this...'

No. People aren't human lego. It isn't the secondary sex characteristics that are the focus of attraction. I can appreciate the beauty of a male person, I can love the personality of a male person, but I can't feel sexual attraction to one. Wrong size, wrong shape, wrong smell even. What is this need to try and wangle those boundaries around until somehow it's possible to crowbar a male into lesbianism? Who is this helping? Why does it matter? If you're attracted to people of both sexes and you aren't specifically homosexual, then just be bi! Be proud, enjoy it, it's not a downgrade of any kind!

@nilsmousehammer How on earth can you say that I have directly lead to homophobia being 'ok' because 'don't be mean'. That feels weirdly personal. How about you hold homophobic people telling gay women to 'try dick' accountable instead of ME? It's bizarre, and such misdirected anger.

Lesbians should not be harangued for not doing men. It's not transphobic. I've made that clear.

I refuse to change how I describe my identity (WTF, how am i even saying that in 2023 on a thread about lesbians on a website for women) because of the myth that someone can't be attracted to a well passing, beautiful trans woman as part of their exclusive attraction to women.

If I'd dated and had a huge crush on Dave down the road who came out as trans yesterday and is now wearing a bad wig, I'd get your point. But I met and was attracted to a very beautiful passing, post-op trans woman.

Another example would be that by your logic lesbians could find trans men like Aydian Dowling attractive. Now I don't find Aydian Dowling attractive, because when I look at him I see a man. I don't compute him as a woman. And I'm not attracted to that...because I'm gay!!! It's so not as simple as you're making out.

I must admit, if I found out that a man I was interested in was female, it would be an unequivocal zeroing in attraction from me.

I also equate the 'HER' app to be potentially used against lesbians in the future as a leverage point 'look it is a 'lesbian' app and we are accepted as lesbians there'. It is disingenuous to ask why it matters so much.

It is like declaring Teen Vogue to be written for teen girls when we absolutely know it is not any more, and declaring that this is what 'teen girls' are talking about so discussion around that subject must be ok! In a thinking world, it wouldn't matter because people would assume there is something very disconnected happening. But we don't live in a thinking world.

@nilsmousehammer What is a 'female smell' exactly?

What is this need to try and wangle those boundaries around until somehow it's possible to crowbar a male into lesbianism? Who is this helping? Why does it matter?
It matters because I'm a lesbian who has just been told by women on mumsnet that I should be excluded from the only community who has ever understood me and given me safety. From when I lost my relationship with my family over 20 years ago for saying I'd never be able to marry a man (since rekindled, not everyone is so fortunate) to having friends to turn to when I was in an abusive relationship with a woman, that community has been my chosen family.

Now, I've been told 'it doesn't matter, just call yourself bisexual, you don't belong any more' simply because I said I wouldn't exclude a well passing, beautiful trans woman from my dating pool.

Well in the words of so many GC mumsnet posters, I'm putting up a wall and saying 'no'. You can't deny the science of attraction to fit into your definitions and gatekeep. Not when it gets so personal.

My last post on this thread, possibly even mumsnet. @MNHQ you are ultimately accountable for this.

This is bizzare.

The thread was only started because a poster wanted to gloat about a lesbian being allegedly inclusive of male people. I'm not completely convinced as it's a very non committal article.

Why would the OP even bother to do that if it was perfectly normal to say that lesbians are attracted to a well passing, beautiful trans woman as part of their exclusive attraction to women?

OP has only done it to wind up people that expect exclusive attraction to women to mean women, not some men too if they are pretty enough.

So it's a bit cheeky to be all indignant about it on a deliberately goady thread.

If it wasn't controversial this thread wouldn't exist and OP wouldn't be here having a needle at lesbians for fun.

All this horribleness originates with the men calling themselves lesbians. Not Mumsnet. Maybe go and pick on people somewhere that men can also assist you in the questions about the weird article.

I see we've reached the flounce....

While blaming MNHQ. That's a first.

I've been told by women on MN multiple times that I'm homophobic for saying that I will not ever be willing to learn to become sexually attracted to male people. And homophobic for not being willing to stretch the term homosexual and lesbian to be male inclusive. And that I should not be homosexual, it's transphobic. It all benefits men at the expense of homosexual females, that's the purpose of all of this niggling.

If I found myself fantastically attracted to someone then I would be fantastically attracted to someone. If I felt that attraction I can't think that I would stop being attracted because they then explained that they were a different sex to the one they expected - I might then think perhaps my sexuality had aspects to it that I hadn't realised before. And that perhaps I was bi rather than lesbian. It wouldn't be a problem.

Because the investment isn't in some kind of gatekeeping myself to biological females, it's in having a word to describe how it is for female people whose sexuality exclusively works only for other female people. And dealing with the never ending attempts of male steering (but done by both male and female people for that benefit to male people) to try and change that because of an underlying belief that a female doesn't really have a right to define her own sexuality or refuse to be useful to male people.

I'm not trying to tell her what she is. I'm just telling her that the words we use to describe people who are attracted to born males, and born females, is, bisexual.

Reality appears to be so rage inducing to some. But it's simply facts. People can be happy, love who they want to love, it's all good. It does not matter. But words have meaning. I refuse to deny reality and ignore the definition of words just because someone wants to be described as something they're not. Others may go along with that. But I won't.

TRAs have redefined lesbian so that a male person, or a person attracted to males, is a 'lesbian'.

Then they claim feminists are trying to erase lesbians because they say males or male-attracted people can't be lesbians.

It's bizarre and exasperating. 'Lesbian' means a female attracted to females. If you change that, it becomes meaningless.

I should be excluded from the only community who has ever understood me and given me safety

If your "community" would exclude you for being bisexual, you should take it up with them.

A lesbian space should not be excluding bisexual women with female partners, just as a vegetarian space should not be excluding omnivores eating plant food.

The spaces are set up to allow people to perform the activity - women being with women, or people eating stuff other than meat. They should not be "identity"-based or exclusive because identity is bollocks. But they should have clear rules about what happens in the space to suit the people they're intended for.

If they were to exclude you for trying to take a male partner along, then that seems perfectly reasonable, just as a vegetarian space excluding me for bringing my sausage seems reasonable. (Whether or not I lie about my sausage being plant-based).

There are a squillion non-lesbian and non-vegetarian spaces. Not taking a male or sausage along to your favourite lesbian/vegetarian space is just being a decent person, and letting those spaces be used as intended.

Yep. No sausage in lesbian spaces is a reasonable rule.

I thikn this is fascinating. What if this passing transwoman was exactly the same in every aspect accept they still had a penis, would you still have been attracted to them and wanted to have sex with them?

*except

So on the logic of the majority on this thread, if a previously straight woman chats to a beautiful woman in a bar, finds herself desperately attracted to her, has a huge identity crisis because she’s never been attracted to a woman before, and finds it hard to reconcile herself to the idea she is in fact bisexual - but then finds out the object of her desire is actually a trans woman - she can just breath a sigh of relief, say ‘great, this changes nothing about my sexuality, I remain a 100% straight woman’?

it just doesn’t seem to me to bear any resemblance to how people actually think and feel about attraction and sexuality.

I’m sorry you’ve been subjected to all this. Thank you for explaining so eloquently, from your own experience, why this is offensive nonsense.

Truth and the correct meaning of words is now offensive nonsense?

Well that's not true either.