"Lesbians being anti-trans is a lesbophobic trope"

[MerlinsLostMarbles]

https://www.gaytimes.co.uk/originals/lesbians-are-not-anti-trans/

I think this helps give another viewpoint to the "gay people are anti-trans" trope that is often used by the LGB-Alliance and Julie Bindel etc.

Lesbians often have to put up with harmful stereotypes that may deter them from coming out, and in recent years the "lesbians are anti-trans" is another stereotype on top of the existing ones.

What "rights" of trans people?

The things you are talking about either already exist or aren't rights.

Trans people already can access healthcare.

And there is no such thing as spaces which align with their gender identity. There are male and female spaces, and accessing spaces intended for members of the opposite sex is not a right, it is an infringement of the rights of the opposite sex.

The rights that folk on this board are so passionately against.

The ability of a trans woman to use the women's bathrooms.

The ability of trans kids to not be subjected to conversion therapy.

The ability of a trans person to access timely gender related healthcare (and no, right now, unless they can go private they cannot access that).

So rail all you like, but I thought it was interesting - but unsurprising given my own experience - that 14 out of 15 gay or bi women MPs support these things, versus only one who opposes them.

Sometimes the wishes of the majority don't get to over-ride the wishes of a minority.

Any MP that supports men who want to be in women's prisons, sports, places where they are undressing and having intimate care, is highly suspect.

Women MPs that do this and don't want women to ever be able to excercise their own boundaries are subservient fools with questionable morals.

There's lots of them.

But it should perhaps make people stop using lesbians to further their case.

Dismissing 93% of gay and bi women MPs as 'subservient fools' for disagreeing with you.

Sure, keep telling us how much feminist this movement is.

Can you not see how accepting that any biological male can, purely on trust of any given male, access women’s safe spaces represents the abolition of sex-based safeguarding of women and girls? And that asserting this as an inalienable right will make many women and girls feel at the very least unsafe?

Nor should removal of body parts for psychological reasons be a “right”. Advocating it for children while framing it as ‘healthcare’ (and talking therapy as 'conversion') is particularly irresponsible.

All of which has been discussed ad nauseum.

My point is merely that contrary to what a lot of people on here say, there is no evidence that lesbians and bi women agree with you.

So perhaps the 'GC movement' could stop using us to further their agenda?

So I did some research 😂😂

My point is merely that contrary to what a lot of people on here say, there is no evidence that lesbians and bi women agree with you.

I have lot's of actual experience of agreement!

Do you remember Get the L out at Pride. Are we pretending that didn't happen. Are we pretending LGBA don't exist?

Honestly, if it's superior feminism to pretend that there are no people that have different perspectives on this then keep it.

And yes, I can call women MPs subservient fools when that's my considered evaluation. After all the Deputy Labour leader doesn't hesitate to call MPs she dislikes "scum".

You have to exclude women like Julie Bindel, Kate Harris, Kathleen Stock etc from "us" for your last sentence to work. Even if your tiny sample of middle-class politics people were representative and most lesbians in the UK welcome males into lesbian-only spaces, why would that majority cancel the right of lesbians who don't welcome males in said spaces to say so?

And to that list we can add Jo Phoenix, Allison Bailey, Martina Navratilova...

I liked that. Especially the 93% figure. Sounds very impressive. That's LOTS!

I never said it cancels any rights.

Just asking people to stop pretending that they are representing some sort of lesbian viewpoint.

I never claimed no lesbian is anti trans. I explicitly included Joanna Cherry. If you guys want to campaign on the basis that a very small minority of lesbians agree with you, then go right ahead. Just stop pretending it is a common view among lesbians.

Yes. What do you call it when you want to find something out and then look up the relevant sources to find out that information?

Or is that something you don't have to trouble yourself with so much?

Why do you get to determine the "common view" ?

Just asking people to stop pretending that they are representing some sort of lesbian viewpoint.

We are representing some sort of lesbian viewpoint, as are you.

'there is no evidence that lesbians and bi women agree with you'

What about all the lesbians and bi women who do, though? What actual evidence are you looking for, here?

My point is merely that contrary to what a lot of people on here say, there is no evidence that lesbians and bi women agree with you.

Ten minutes later

I never claimed no lesbian is anti trans.

My point is merely that contrary to what a lot of people on here say
Many of whom are lesbians and bi women.

, there is no evidence that lesbians and bi women agree with you.

So the lesbians and bi women that agree with each other here are not evidence of lesbian and bo women agreeing?

I don't agree that wanting men, including transwomen, to stay out of women's spaces is the same as anti-trans. So, even gay and bi women who supported the Equality Act debate on the 'GC' side would not necessarily be anti-trans. In fact, of the bits I saw, it was noticeable how the GC side took time to assert how they though trans people should be supported and not discriminated against. I don't recall much reciprocation for the rights of women and girls from the other side.

Transmen who be free to use women's spaces, if they so choose. I believe many lesbians or bi people are open to or are in relationships with transmen.

I've nrtft so sorry if I'm repeating a pp.

I did a survey of myself and 100% of the women in this room agreed with me. I asked the dog, but she didn't understand the question.

A small minority one, sure.

If you were making that clear, I wouldn't have an issue.

No, these things aren't rights.

Trans women using women's bathrooms is not a right, it is an infringement of the rights of actual women to have their own single sex spaces that they don't have to share with male people.

Children seeking puberty blockers, cross sex hormones and surgery absolutely should be undergoing comprehensive psychiatric treatment before they are given access to that. This is not "conversion therapy", it is basic safeguarding.

It is very telling that you can't make your point without twisting and distorting the truth in this way.

So you are shifting about a bit there Tea?

First it's no evidence, then you have decided that you have evidence.

And now you know it's a small minority?

How do you know?