"Lesbians being anti-trans is a lesbophobic trope"

[MerlinsLostMarbles]

https://www.gaytimes.co.uk/originals/lesbians-are-not-anti-trans/

I think this helps give another viewpoint to the "gay people are anti-trans" trope that is often used by the LGB-Alliance and Julie Bindel etc.

Lesbians often have to put up with harmful stereotypes that may deter them from coming out, and in recent years the "lesbians are anti-trans" is another stereotype on top of the existing ones.

Anything that indicates a majority, or even a substantial minority, of lesbians agree with you.

That's not borne out in my circle of friends and acquaintances. But of course that's just anecdote. Hence why it is interesting to look at a defined cohort of lesbians and bi women in a specific role (MP) and discover that 93% of them disagree with gender critical views. That's probably about what it is among the lesbians and bi women I know too. And obviously this thread started with some evidence of younger lesbians also being supportive of trans people.

So all I'm asking is that those who pretend they are speaking for lesbians generally, or even a large proportion of lesbians, stop doing so.

Are lesbians allowed to speak for themselves, then?

And are the rest of us allowed to quote lesbians who are speaking for themselves?

I'm also not sure why it has to be a majority of lesbians in order for their feelings and opinions to matter.

Aren't you treading on rather dangerous ground there?

So all I'm asking is that those who pretend they are speaking for lesbians generally, or even a large proportion of lesbians, stop doing so.

Why are we pretending and you aren't? You have just explained your evidence is actually your anecdotal story about friends and a non exhaustive count of out MPs.

The ability of a trans woman to use the women's bathrooms.

"Trans women" are in actual fact men who call themselves women. So you're talking about men using women's bathrooms. Which is a violation of boundaries and a blatant disregard of how women feel about these intruders.

The ability of trans kids to not be subjected to conversion therapy.

It's not conversion therapy to gently explore with someone why they've developed a set of false beliefs.

The ability of a trans person to access timely gender related healthcare (and no, right now, unless they can go private they cannot access that).

There's nothing particularly "trans"-specific about that, there are many areas of the NHS that are under strain with huge waiting lists. This needs to be resolved more broadly, not having "trans" picked out as a special case.

When you say a non-exhaustive count of out MPs, what do you mean? As far as I can tell the 15 MPs are an exhaustive list.

Also, I don't predicate my support for trans rights on the fact that lesbians support them. I simply cite lesbian support levels to rebut the false claims of gender criticals.

If your claim was 'a small number of lesbians agree with us' then I wouldn't have a problem. If your claim was simply 'this particular lesbian agrees with us' I wouldn't have a problem.

But instead we get straight people telling very large numbers of lesbians that they are homophobic because they support trans rights. If you don't see a problem in that, then you're part of the problem.

Again, never said minority views don't matter.

But minority views should not be presented as falsely representing a majority view within a community. It's dishonest and its dangerous.

Are you complaining at people using the words 'lesbian and bi women' because they've not prefaced the phrase with 'some'? I'd be very surprised to find ANY issue which ALL lesbians and bi women agree on.

You know when people say something like 'women are concerned about their safety in urban areas at night' it doesn't mean ALL WOMEN EVERYWHERE AT ALL TIMES?

'minority views should not be presented as falsely representing a majority' - who has done, this, can you show me where this has been said?

Is there anywhere in the wonderful world of statistics that lesbian or bi MPs could be regarded as a representative sample?

Are you counting Jamie Wallis in the list of lesbian MPs?

When you say a non-exhaustive count of out MPs, what do you mean? As far as I can tell the 15 MPs are an exhaustive list.

Really? Is being out a requirement for office?

But instead we get straight people telling very large numbers of lesbians that they are homophobic because they support trans rights.

Woah another swerve to straight people.

Slippery.

I agree with this and when transwomen (a minority) tell me they are women (a majority) they are definitely misrepresenting a majority.

Women are not defined by a minority of men. That's a misrepresentation.

I guess that Jamie Wallace is (would have grown up to be) an effeminate gay man who had a shit time from his homophobic dad, rather than a late blooming straight man who shops at 'GAP'. Not that it's any of my business. But in case of the former, I feel quite sorry for him. It's sad to see someone with so much internalised homophobia they assume they must be a woman rather than just accept being a same-sex attracted man.

The ability of a trans woman to use the women's bathrooms.

Why do trans activists always use the Americanism "bathroom"? It sounds twee and affected when British people use it when they mean a public toilet.

MTF trans people are male, and women's toilets and changing rooms (or whatever you mean) are for female people. Surveys show that most women don't want to share female spaces with male bodied people.

As far as anyone knows, Jamie Wallis is a straight male.

But it should perhaps make people stop using lesbians to further their case.

"People" like lesbians who disagree with you, you mean?

@ArabeIIaScott fair enough, I've said more than enough about his private business, and I'll stop.

I'm not saying this about you TeaKlaxon because you're just an anonymous, random person on a parenting site and could be anyone, but, imo, the only people who are desperate to make lesbianism accepting of heterosexual men is - heterosexual men. For perfectly obvious reasons.

Women who are solely attracted to women have a collective name - lesbians - and a sexual orientation which is protected by law.

They have zero need to change their name, or the understanding of their sexual orientation. There's no point. And they have been battling heterosexual men who want lesbianism to be a way to have sex and validation simultaneously since forever. Even before men calling themselves women, men wanted to be validated as studs, who can satisfy a woman who 'allegedly' has zero interest in their genitalia, but are somehow magically very much mistaken 🙄

Lesbianism is about women, it has absolutely nothing to do with men. If you want to invent a sexual orientation that means some women are attracted to women and also to men who want to be women, but not men who don't, then knock yourself out.

Lesbian is taken.

Despite you asking your mates 😁

@Datun I fully respect that and I have noooooooo business saying otherwise.

I suggest you listen to Angela Eagle's speech from yesterday.

Eloquently put, @Datun.

The signs in UK female toilets warning women and girls to respect and not challenge any male who might be there, ALL use the word "bathroom" or "restroom".

Not even a minimal effort to hide the US cultural colony mindset, or pretend some independent thought was involved.

You can suggest what you like.

Lesbian it's not open to heterosexual man, however much they bleat about it.

Men in skirts and nail varnish can feck right off and hang out with the Queers and Pansexuals.
This Lesbian and others are rightly resisting the colonization of Lesbian life by MALE oppressors who call themselves transwomen to disguise what they are doing!
MALES OUT OF WOMAN'S SPACES