Trans-males in female spaces

[itsturtlesallthewaydown]

Virtually all the debates over trans issues is about trans male to female, but 50% [1] are female to male.

I am genuinely curious what the GC line on this is: would a trans-male still be welcome in female only spaces like toilets, changing rooms etc?

If they aren't welcome, even though they were born female, isn't that contradicting that sex is fixed and unchangeable...?

[1] www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/culturalidentity/genderidentity/bulletins/genderidentityenglandandwales/census2021

The OP is someone who holds to the concept of 'transmen' and transwomen - but also used the word 'male' and 'female'. I was approaching her on her own terms as best I could, whilst simulataneously trying to make my own point. I didn't feel compromised by doing that.

We exist at a time when there is such a term as 'Transmen' ( whether we agree/like/dislike) - I wanted to make the point that the term male and female are not in the same category. They are biological significators, not social ones.

@NotHavingIt
I understood why you were trying to make a male/man distinction to the OP. They should have said "transmen in female toilets". I know the term TM exists and what it is supposed to mean, but I prefer not to use it for the same reason that I picked up on your designation of "man/woman" as gender terms, on the assumption that you meant they are always gender terms, not only when attached to the prefix "trans".

This is not a political position. Those words are universally understood to refer to sex - AHM/AHF. If you said to anyone in any language that a man was waiting outside in the car for you, or a woman had given you a nice pair of jeans, everybody's mental picture would be of a man or a woman. Not a masculine/feminine-presenting or behaving person of either sex.

@Boiledbeetle but how would you know? If they passed as a man, had all the surgery and fancied women you are happy for them to use the female toilets. How would you know they weren't a man? Basically a person in all ways you can see looks like a man. If you allow them in then how do you know you aren't just letting men in?

@journeyofinsanity just read the thread.

@CryInToYourCornflakesNicola @Delphinium20 Google Chris Mosier in fact just Google 'transmen who pass'. There are many

There are many who pass - in photos

@journeyofinsanity until this surgery can replace gait, increase hand and foot size, correct the skeletal differences which mean men and women walk differently and create Adam’s apples as well as replicating the Brow ridge men have, I think most people will be able to tell who is a female.

@Hoppinggreen Chris mosier is an Olympic athlete. Passes

@journeyofinsanity if transwomen are claiming they are at risk in male spaces, why would you advocate for putting females in those spaces. Would you put Elliot Page in a male prison? If not… why?

Not an Olympic athlete at all. Competed in an Olympic trial but did not complete due to injury. Has competed in age group races in world events on the US team but has not been successful or even in the top 50% of finishers.

A very very good female athlete may well beat lots of less good male athletes. See Paula Radcliffe for example.

Because they don't look like men, any more than transwomen look like women. They may ask imagine that nobody can tell but it's always blindingly obvious.

Chris Mosier looks like a woman to me. Who chooses whether someone passes?

Reality.

I doubt it.

Even when everyone had to wear face masks due to Covid it was easy to tell someone’s sex and even if you couldn’t tell immediately it was pretty obvious once they moved.

That article doesnt mention transmen.

OK. So Chris doesn't pass. Chris's face is very female looking. Lack of boobs does not make one a man.

In a communal changing room it's fairly obvious who's actually male and actually female.

I cannot believe adult women on here would be happy for their female transboy 16 yo to be changing or sharing showers with actual 16yo boys.

I have just followed your instruction . Sorry , but I think if you were within ten feet of them you would have serious doubts. The shape of the face, the breadth of the shoulders, the lack of Adam’s apple, oh really just the whole body shape and dimensions…..

I suppose my response would be : as long as they didn’t behave in a masculine fashion in a female space, I would put up with it ( though tbh, I wouldn’t like it much, I prefer not to be in a vulnerable position with people who have serious psychological issues). As everyone else has said, it’s for men to police their own spaces, which they are physically rather more capable of doing.

But why do we have to legislate for the extreme examples? As we have already observed, most people who are ‘ presenting’ as the opposite sex are persuading themselves more than other people.

Men may well police their own spaces and hound a Transman out and actually I'd support them. At which point they belong in the Ladies.

We cannot reasonably argue that neither Transwomen or Transmen belong in ladies spaces.

You see I fully disagree with you there.

Many women, lesbian, more masculine looking NOW have issues in women toilets because they are told ‘they don’t pass and they aren’t women’.

What ‘looks’ like a woman is very subjective and as soon as women don’t condemn strictly to women stereotype, WE, women, single them out. For not conforming.

Its easy from behind a screen, looking at photos, to say ‘oh they don’t pass’. You just have to look at the Adam apple blabla. In the RLworld, people just a quick look, judge and penalise women - because let’s be honest, there are more lesbian women than there are transwomen.

fwiw, to those who they will never pass. You won’t notice tge ines around you who do pass. Because, you know… they pass.

@MyriadOfTravels - I have lots of very butch lesbian friends. This is not an issue any more than it has been in the past. Every now and then someone might say 'oh this is the ladies' and my friend will reply 'I'm a woman' and the first woman say 'oh sorry' and my friend says 'it's okay' and that's the end.

My comment was regarding as other posters have explained that mannerisms, body shape and so on are all indicators.
You don't know what my life experiences are, nor how 'stereotypically female' I dress.
Clymene is spot on, that's the approach to take and it would be much easier if the presence of males being in the women's loos, changing rooms etc is something we knew could be challenged without being done by the gender police.

Google might only have photos that show them in a passing light. I've seen similar people in their feeds and then met them in real life and it's clear they are women. You can fool some people with a photo but you can't fool all the people all the time in real life. Hands and gait are clear giveaways.

im really happy you havent had any issues.

But I know quite a few lesbians who have. Incl one that doesn’t want to go out anymore or only use the disabled loo because if that. She has had one too many encounters that didn’t stop at ‘I’m a woman’ and then everything was solved.

Plus the fact that you’ve experienced it yourself confirmed what I said. It shows that YES lesbians are often thought to be transwoman/men. Maybe it’s not new thing but people clearly get confused and can’t make the difference immediately….