Page 8 | Trans-males in female spaces

itsturtlesallthewaydown · 2023-02-24T14:43:02+00:00

Virtually all the debates over trans issues is about trans male to female, but 50% [1] are female to male. I am genuinely curious what the GC line on this is: would a trans-male still be welcome in female only spaces like toilets, changing rooms etc? If they aren't welcome, even though they were born female, isn't that contradicting that sex is fixed and unchangeable...? [1] https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/culturalidentity/genderidentity/bulletins/genderidentityenglandandwales/census2021

Advicerequest · 25/02/2023 09:02

nepeta · 24/02/2023 17:10

A tricky question for me. My starting point is that the oppression of women and girls is sex-based at its root, and that feminist activism should therefore prioritise fighting sex-based discrimination, sexism, sexual violence against women and girls, and the still common view that the female sex is simply the inferior sex.

Transmen are female, so in that sense many of the difficulties they face will be about sex-based issues, but those transmen who pass will reap male privilege (the average earnings of transmen rise after transitioning, though not much). Yet they still have female reproductive systems and might face sex-based obstacles in that field. Clearly, feminism would also benefit them if it gets/keeps abortion legalised etc. But they could also benefit from some anti-feminist policies that out-of-closet-wombcarriers will not.

The big problem I have is with those transmen who have openly excluded themselves from the sex class which used to be called women, and who insist that the new identity class 'women' should consist of only individuals who are feminine, i.e., submissive, passive, emotional and nurturing, which they are not. This turns my sex class and my embodied identity into sexist caricatures.

So those activists in this group (and many, many nonbinary-identifying female people) in my opinion are doing damage to feminism and the vast majority of women and girls by trying to erase our embodied identities and by making what looks to me like private contracts with the 'patriarchy' to both get all the benefits from feminism (repro rights for 'uterus-havers') and to escape being treated with sexism and misogyny.

That they seem to treat me and other bog-standard women with some contempt hurts and angers me. At the same time, they remain female, and in that sense my feminism would also cover their sex-based mistreatment. But I would not go out of my way to erase my own identity to include them in some group they have voluntarily first left.

Thanks for this.

ScrollingLeaves · 25/02/2023 09:09

@nepeta · Yesterday 17:10
You put that so well, thank you.

highame · 25/02/2023 09:21

Haven't RTFT but I did read 'probably twitter' that transmen get a bit of a roasting if they go into the men's and they're spotted.

Also if we get used to seeing transmen in women's toilets, men will think it's no problem to invade. This sounds very naïve when written down

Ofcourseshecan · 25/02/2023 09:22

Sugarfree23 · 24/02/2023 16:37

Transmen (females) pose no risk in male spaces.
Transwomen (males) do pose a risk in female spaces - obvs this is a statistical average as transwomen as a group have male-pattern offending risks (I have to add this bit of explanation or the hard-of-thinking will accuse me of saying all transwomen are sex-offenders).

@Stillcountingbeans Transmen may not pose a risk as such but why should men have their privacy invaded and why should they be put at risk of false accusations.

We have to be consistent in arguments TWANW TMANM

Commenters here are being pretty consistent in their arguments, with some variations as you’d expect in any group that agrees on a main issue while still (being human individuals) having different views on some details.

Males must stay out if women’s spaces because males threaten women’s safety. NAMALT, but we have no way of knowing which males are dangerous, which is why the ban has always applied to all males. Decent men don’t question that because they don’t want to threaten or intimidate women.

BluebellBlueballs · 25/02/2023 09:24

highame · 25/02/2023 09:21

Haven't RTFT but I did read 'probably twitter' that transmen get a bit of a roasting if they go into the men's and they're spotted.

Also if we get used to seeing transmen in women's toilets, men will think it's no problem to invade. This sounds very naïve when written down

Surely they would not use the urinal but be in a cubicle where genitalia could not be seen?

I believe some men do pee sitting down so it's not like the sound of pee from a cubicle immediately = TM

Ofcourseshecan · 25/02/2023 09:26

Sugarfree, I sympathise with men who would be embarrassed by a woman entering the men’s toilets or changing rooms. (Though the men would not be in physical danger as women are from men.) But males caused this problem. It’s not women’s duty to sort it out.

Ofcourseshecan · 25/02/2023 09:30

BluebellBlueballs · 25/02/2023 09:24

Surely they would not use the urinal but be in a cubicle where genitalia could not be seen?

I believe some men do pee sitting down so it's not like the sound of pee from a cubicle immediately = TM

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Good point. Even if surgery creates a neo-penis, would the person be able to urinate through it?

Ofcourseshecan · 25/02/2023 09:34

And good morning to all those with hangovers after last night’s party here. I’m brewing up the coffee right now.

Sugarfree23 · 25/02/2023 09:43

Males might have started it but Females have joined in.

We need a clear line you use the facilities appropriate to your biological sex.
It's impossible to argue that neither Transwomen or Transmen are allowed in the female facilities.

Transmen are possibly still having periods so need the bins. Along with other female issues. We also have to care about the Transmans safety in male places.

Boiledbeetle · 25/02/2023 09:49

NotHavingIt · 25/02/2023 09:02

My response was to the OP, not to you. If you want to respond in your own way to the opening question you are free to do so. I don't need anyone to monitor, or correct, my responses, nor do my homework for me.

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You do get how this forum works don't you? You know anybody can comment on anyone's words? Just like I'm doing now! If you don't want people to comment on the words you write don't write them.

nilsmousehammer · 25/02/2023 09:58

Sugarfree23 · 25/02/2023 09:43

Males might have started it but Females have joined in.

We need a clear line you use the facilities appropriate to your biological sex.
It's impossible to argue that neither Transwomen or Transmen are allowed in the female facilities.

Transmen are possibly still having periods so need the bins. Along with other female issues. We also have to care about the Transmans safety in male places.

How about TM and TW care about the impact on females of male and male appearing people in female spaces? And look for third spaces? Because that solves all of this.

Females are always, always, cast as the ones with all the responsibility, all the duty of care to everyone else. #notyourmum TQ people need to take an equal share in this and start helping by recognising other people have needs too.

ladygindiva · 25/02/2023 09:59

heldinadream · 24/02/2023 14:49

Yes I would rather share a woman-only space with a woman who thinks she's a man than with a man who thinks he's a woman. Obviously.

This

Hoppinggreen · 25/02/2023 10:09

Boiledbeetle · 24/02/2023 15:01

Transwoman in my toilet? No they can do one.

Transman in my toilet? Of course they are after all a woman.

Is this supposed to be some not so subtle trap we all fall into and out ourselves as transphobic bigots? Rather than just wanting men to piss off and use the gents?

For me it’s even simpler
Biological men in my toilet - nope
Biological women in my toilet - no problem

Poppingwatermelons · 25/02/2023 10:19

I have not read the full thread but I watched a news story on youtube the other day. I think in was australian. It was supposed to be a positive story how teenage boys were excepting of a young trans male in there changing rooms. It left me feeling sad. I just saw a young girl believing she was being accepted as one of the boys. When in reality those boys are probably just delighted to be allowed to watch a girl getting undressed- and being praised for it. I felt sad that noone was stepping to protect her.

I do wonder how man trans men would stick by their belief they are men if they were faced with the prospect of male prison. I have yet to hear of anyone demanding that right.

NotHavingIt · 25/02/2023 10:23

Boiledbeetle · 25/02/2023 09:49

You do get how this forum works don't you? You know anybody can comment on anyone's words? Just like I'm doing now! If you don't want people to comment on the words you write don't write them.

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I don't mind comments, of course, but my reading of that particular comment came across as a correction of my response to the OP. The use of the word 'you' signalled to my mind a direct comment towards me. I didn't need to be corrected in this instance as my response was to the OP's question.

When there is a dialogue better communication can be achieved if one assesses wher the person is coming from and then responds to them accordingly.

I have also responded. That is how it works, yes?

NotHavingIt · 25/02/2023 10:28

Whethere you like, agree with, or approve of my response is neither here nor there. I'm not sure what it has to do with you, anyway?

BellaAmorosa · 25/02/2023 10:40

NotHavingIt · 25/02/2023 09:02

My response was to the OP, not to you. If you want to respond in your own way to the opening question you are free to do so. I don't need anyone to monitor, or correct, my responses, nor do my homework for me.

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So what if you were replying to the OP? You expressed views which I assume are your own and I took issue with them. If you want only the OP to see or respond to your posts, DM them. This is a public forum.

NotHavingIt · 25/02/2023 10:47

BellaAmorosa · 25/02/2023 10:40

So what if you were replying to the OP? You expressed views which I assume are your own and I took issue with them. If you want only the OP to see or respond to your posts, DM them. This is a public forum.

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You seem more interested in "taking issue" and policing others' words than in reponding the the OPs question. As i see it you can frame your own reponse in any way you like, but you cannot re-frame mine.

I'm not interested in cliques or friendship groups, nor in having whole threads taken over by incessant dissection, and misinterpretation, of another's words, intentions or motives. That has already happened elsewhere on the forum and I suspect you were bringing unfinnished business over here, as a couple of others have attempted. I'm the new girl and you are trying to put me in my place.

You respond to post in your way and I'll reposnd in mine. And please refrain from stalking me around the forum with ill intent.

Boiledbeetle · 25/02/2023 11:02

I'm the new girl and you are trying to put me in my place.

Well, as the 'new girl' you've certainly set your stall out!

nilsmousehammer · 25/02/2023 11:07

I'm the new girl and you are trying to put me in my place.

🙄

No one cares if you joined ten years ago or ten minutes ago. People will respond to the content of your post and that's all.

NotHavingIt · 25/02/2023 11:23

nilsmousehammer · 25/02/2023 11:07

I'm the new girl and you are trying to put me in my place.

🙄

No one cares if you joined ten years ago or ten minutes ago. People will respond to the content of your post and that's all.

Likewise!

BellaAmorosa · 25/02/2023 11:34

NotHavingIt · 25/02/2023 10:47

You seem more interested in "taking issue" and policing others' words than in reponding the the OPs question. As i see it you can frame your own reponse in any way you like, but you cannot re-frame mine.

I'm not interested in cliques or friendship groups, nor in having whole threads taken over by incessant dissection, and misinterpretation, of another's words, intentions or motives. That has already happened elsewhere on the forum and I suspect you were bringing unfinnished business over here, as a couple of others have attempted. I'm the new girl and you are trying to put me in my place.

You respond to post in your way and I'll reposnd in mine. And please refrain from stalking me around the forum with ill intent.

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I will always challenge assertions I disagree with or think are factually incorrect.

I did respond to the OP in fact,
I believe I commented on this thread before you did, so perhaps you are stalking me?

I have asked you questions on other threads which you have been unable or unwilling to answer. I let it go in the end. For me, that is a pity as I was genuinely interested in your responses. I did actually get a reply from another poster who was at first also unwilling to explain what she meant. From what she said, I learned something about her. Nobody cried and nobody died.

Just being blunt here - you don't need to take disagreement personally. You could have come back to me with, "this is why I believe X" but instead you told me to mind my own business. Again - this is a public forum. Anything you or I say can be picked up on by anyone.

BellaAmorosa · 25/02/2023 11:46

@NotHavingIt
And iirc, on that other thread, you answered a question I put to the other poster. So I guess your rule about only responding to people who address you directly is not absolutely hard and fast?

Let's shake hands and reset. I'd be interested to hear why you think that "woman" and "man" are gender terms and not sex based, and why.

NotHavingIt · 25/02/2023 11:48

BellaAmorosa · 25/02/2023 11:34

I will always challenge assertions I disagree with or think are factually incorrect.

I did respond to the OP in fact,
I believe I commented on this thread before you did, so perhaps you are stalking me?

I have asked you questions on other threads which you have been unable or unwilling to answer. I let it go in the end. For me, that is a pity as I was genuinely interested in your responses. I did actually get a reply from another poster who was at first also unwilling to explain what she meant. From what she said, I learned something about her. Nobody cried and nobody died.

Just being blunt here - you don't need to take disagreement personally. You could have come back to me with, "this is why I believe X" but instead you told me to mind my own business. Again - this is a public forum. Anything you or I say can be picked up on by anyone.

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As I've previously suggested, but some didn't like, it it can often be the way that one responds that matters most when it comes to communication and dialogue. Your post was to my mind unnecessarily provocative and seeming to suggest that I was in some way 'wrong'. It was posted in a manner of dialogue or friendly mutual exchange

Look, I'm really not intetested in al of this back and forth or in trying to justify my repsonse to a third party question. I'm not here to socialise or to argue all day with people. I took a two year break from posting on here - just looking in for info and resource - and now I recall one of the reasons why I took that break in the first place.

You can continue this on your own if you like, or with anyone else who is interested. I'm not.

NotHavingIt · 25/02/2023 11:48

"It was not posted in aamnner of friendly exchange..."