Trans-males in female spaces

[itsturtlesallthewaydown]

Virtually all the debates over trans issues is about trans male to female, but 50% [1] are female to male.

I am genuinely curious what the GC line on this is: would a trans-male still be welcome in female only spaces like toilets, changing rooms etc?

If they aren't welcome, even though they were born female, isn't that contradicting that sex is fixed and unchangeable...?

[1] www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/culturalidentity/genderidentity/bulletins/genderidentityenglandandwales/census2021

This kind of loss of trust is due to the erosion of boundaries that has been one of the consequences of radical transactivism. It was inevitable there would be casualties. You cannot push or invade someone's boundaries without triggering a heightened sense of alert.

What needs to happen going forward is a re-assertion of boundaries as they relate to single sex provision. This needs to be made clear in any new legislation. Alongside that there needs to be mixed sex facilities for anyone who feels comfortable using them, or who would prefer them ( or so they say).

Once it is established that single sex means single sex and not gender identity then trust and confidence should gradually be restored.

I've been partially sighted my whole life and I can still tell who is male.

Theres a picture I saw a few months ago, of a person standing at the top of an escalator with a huge furry coat on. And head bowed. So all you could really see was the feet. Still just from that photo alone, it's a man standing there. Cant find the pic now but even without looking it up, finding out who the model was, it's a man.

So yes as a pp, I'm sorry for those who cant tell men from women, it must make life difficult.

At the detransitioner event in Manchester a few years ago there were six detransitioned young women who on first glance, or even second glance, looked very androgynous. To be honest, I wasn't sure to begin with ( until they took the microphone) whether they were tom boy'ish girls or very feminine looking young men. As I say very androgynous.

They all had short hair and wore androgynous clothing, though I imagine a young feminine looking man presenting or identifying 'as a woman' might be wearing 'women's clothing'.

Apart from the visual presentation, though, it became obvious that all were actually young women the moment they spoke - and not because of the timbre of voice (they had been left with deepened voices due to the use of testosterone) but becaue of the cadence of their voices - which I think tends to be quite distinctive between men and women.

I don't quite know why this is considered a gotcha. There are plenty of equally "hulking" trans women who we are expected to share spaces with and trans activists lose the plot when we point out their obvious maleness.

This. It's a weird argument.

@CryInToYourCornflakesNicola
I do not believe you.
So your response to someone having a different experience to you is to just not believe them? Really? You just invalidate my experience by stating that you don't believe me? Wow. Who need toxic masculinity when you have women just denying the experience of other women

I have a ftm 20 year old. They do not use female loos. The look for neutral gender. To me this is mad as they have a natal male boyfriend. The absolutely do not look male, speak as such or walk in a male way. I have tried to argue we would not ask a lesbian not to use female loos. My DC tried once to use a male loo and was accosted. Third spaces are the only way to provide dignity to those who seek it and respect others. There is always little on MN to support ftm. Thank you for this thread.

Name5 · Today 21:05
My DC tried once to use a male loo and was accosted
That is a horrible thing to have happened to your ftm DC, and I agree about third spaces.

Does your DC say why they will not use the female loos?

DelurkingAJ · 24/02/2023 14:50
From a safeguarding point of view then yes, very welcome. From a sports point of view they need to be clean of performance enhancing drugs but otherwise yes, why not? I’d add they should be free to win women’s awards and prizes.

I should think that taking testosterone would be generally performance enhancing. Are there many transmen who do not take it? I have no idea.

@ScrollingLeaves my DC feels that the other female users would object. They don't want to cause distress. When they tried to use a male loo they got 'hello darling' and followed
My DC is only 20 but has dressed as a man for 5 years. No testosterone. There is no way they would be taken for a man. Too feminine, too small. Sadly they got caught up in the 'cult of glitter' that has specifically targeted young girls. I fight everyday for them to stay safe and healthy. I have been the baddy because I had to.
Transexuals do exist and the need safe spaces too. The numbers have shot up massively and it is not about awareness. To call it a fashion is deeply dismissive as it impacts so horrendously on young lives. I have no issue with adult transpeple going about their business disctetly.

I think most transmen are young, as it’s quite a recent fashion. Young women are very much at risk in men’s spaces, so I would prefer them to use the women’s. I would find that stressful if they looked so like men that they triggered my natural defence reactions. But I haven’t seen a transman that I actually thought was male. And I’d still rather they weren’t putting themselves at risk.

Ooops sorry, Name5, I hadn’t read your comment before I wrote. I called it a fashion because it seemed more neutral than fad, and movement sounds more political. I don’t mean to minimise the seriousness of the issue. Well done for helping your child stay safe, and I hope she quietly grows out of it.

@Ofcourseshecan no offence taken. I live walking on egg shells in real life and on munsnet.
I have few people I can talk to about ftm and it is utterly heartbreaking for me. If I say my daughter I get abused and yet I can't say the name she uses with her friends. She no longer wants hormones or surgery so I don't get it. It has made life very hard for her. The abuse is terrible.

@Name5 I'm so sorry your daughter had this frightening experience. I wonder if ftms face more hostility as they are not emulating the 'weaker sex' ?
Bit like the different public responses to breast cancer as opposed to eg testicular.

I hope that doesn't come across as trivialising this issue. No offence intended. Most men would not have this reaction to a trans man imo. Or a transwoman for that matter. Women sometimes have no option but to use our cubicles anyway.

At least she is not going down the path of drugs etc. I wish her well for the future.

@Abhannmor really no offence taken. I think imo she is very attractive and she might have been followed purely for that reason. Some girls stumble into the gents on a night out etc.
There is a real danger for genuine transpeople if they don't have privacy. I would not be happy with my DC sharing space with naked men. The whole trans issue has been highjacked. Being disabled, married to a BAME person and with ftm DD and a gay bff I have few predjuices. What I wish for everyone is respect and decency. A neutral gender loo is not much to ask. My understanding is only 1.5m (2%+)of the UK population is LGBTQ so hardly needing of huge increased public spend.

The subject of 'passing' is a tar-baby in my opinion (a subject to get bogged down in for no good effect). It is also very unfair on those who clearly don't remotely pass. Surely the rules should apply universally, regardless of how much effort you've made with your outward appearance. That's the only way to be fair - otherwise it's just a beauty contest.

I’m a woman so don’t mind other women (biological females) in my private spaces.

This. And like any beauty contest, some people are born with significant advantages. There is no amount of effort which will make me look attractive or my OH anything like a woman.

I'm sorry your child experienced abuse. I think most women would not object though. Your child is clearly a woman. They can dress and identity however they like and are still welcome to use the ladies. We do need spaces to be safe so need to break down the barriers which prevent people being safe in the loos designated for their sex class. TWAW mantra is part of the problem because it leads to some people expecting no people who don't dress according to the sex stereotypes of their own culture in their own loos. It's not a healthy environment for kids to grow up in.

Most dads won't walk naked to their daughters.

Women (female adult humans) who are content to be women shd have women-only spaces. Men (male adult humans) who are content to be men shd have men-only spaces. Transwomen (men who say they are women) shd have TW-only spaces. Transmen (women who say they are men) shd have TM-only spaces. Non-binary people would either use spaces for their original biological or cosmetically-assigned sex, or we could add in a few extra 'unisex' (d'you remember that term?) loos. Oh, bring back LADIES and GENTS and an understanding of appropriate behaviour!