Trans-males in female spaces

[itsturtlesallthewaydown]

Virtually all the debates over trans issues is about trans male to female, but 50% [1] are female to male.

I am genuinely curious what the GC line on this is: would a trans-male still be welcome in female only spaces like toilets, changing rooms etc?

If they aren't welcome, even though they were born female, isn't that contradicting that sex is fixed and unchangeable...?

[1] www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/culturalidentity/genderidentity/bulletins/genderidentityenglandandwales/census2021

@Whatsnewpussyhat gin for you too?

I wouldn't mind sharing a single sex service with a female (sex) trans person (whatever "gender" they identify as).

I don't think women in general are bothered about sharing with women who ID as men. I read recently that all the female trans prisoners in the UK are housed in the female prison estate and there are no campaigns to have them removed to the male estate. There are only campaigns to keep prisons single-sex.

Also there are "trans men" competing in women's sporting events (obviously subject to testosterone usage) and I've never seen female athletes complain about this, only about sharing changing rooms with biological males and competing against biological males. The Lia Thomas debacle highlights this. There was a female trans person (trans man) competing in the same competition (in the female category) and nobody complained or campaigned that was unfair.

Not a gin fan.
Large Baileys with plenty of ice would do nicely.

"Also there are "trans men" competing in women's sporting events (obviously subject to testosterone usage) and I've never seen female athletes complain about this,"

Off-topic, but I think there are a lot of complaints about that!
e.g. www.theguardian.com/sport/2022/jun/20/no-magic-solution-in-the-battle-over-trans-inclusion-in-womens-sport

@itsturtlesallthewaydown that article is about males with a trans identity, not females, of course women are complying males are in their sports. Where are women complaining about females with a trans identity in female sport?

@Signalbox gah I got that all the wrong way round...

Glug.

I've got room for another one...or ten.

Fuck it Just pass me the bottle.

This is the problem when language gets mangled.
That article is about the issue of transwomen (males) competing in the female category, and yes there are issues with that, as signalbox said.
I've never heard of women (real actual women) objecting to transmen (other females) competing so long as they aren't doping with testosterone.

Can someone who is GC confirm that they would be happy with a fully transitioned female to male person in a female only space? How would that work in say, swimming open changing rooms if they had a penis?

Genuine question - as to me, this indicates the problem is not with genuine trans people, but those that EXPLOIT self ID to gain access, rather than an actual genuine trans person?

Perfectly happy with a woman, even with part of her arm being used to imitate a penis using female spaces.

It's men, no matter how they identify that can go and use the men's space.

I suspect transmen get harassed in men's toilets. I can only imagine what goes on, particularly in pubs and bars.

Taking aside the massive loophole that self identity gives predators, transwomen want access to women's toilets to escape male aggression and harrassment, just as transmen do, just as women do.

90% of the trans issue around female safe spaces is male entitlement, male aggression and male violence.

A third space doesn't help when said aggressive men have access to it too, though I'm not sure what the answer is.

Do you think that could be triggering to SA survivors? How would they KNOW its a biological female?

I think a more interesting question is where the droves of transmen sex offencders are currently being places. I mean if everything is equal and people are 'living as' their gender, there must be tens by now. Are they placed in male or female prisons?

Or is it the case that transmen are not committing lots of sex offences. For some reason. And that the prison service wouldn't dream of placing anyone with a vagina in a male prison because it would be utterly terrifying and impossible to police.

Some thought experiment about opposite world doesn't work because men and women aren't behaving the same.

So @Seasonofthewitch83 is your solution to ban females from female slaves if they wish to be seen as males, and allow males in female spaces if they wish to be seen as females? Which do you think would be more triggering to a SA survivor?

@Seasonofthewitch83 thanks, you put that better than me!

What @Boiledbeetle said.

Personally I think it’s pretty easy to identify biological females whether or not they have a fake appendage.

Not at all, I am just wondering how it would work. I understand the reasoning for having female only spaces, but wonder how that works in a practical sense if there is a woman who has fully transitioned and looks like a male in said space.
If we are going to enforce rules based on biological sex, am just curious how it would work in a practical sense. The argument is always around transwomen.

I am a CSA survivor.

And honestly you can tell.

But unlike men who want to be in women's changing rooms just because, I suspect most transmen have found solutions that don't involve potentially upsetting other women. From all I've read it appears women transition for completely different reasons than men, and hence their behaviour during and after transition tend to be different.

But that's just my opinion. You would have to ask actual transmen which facilities they change in.

@Seasonofthewitch83 as the alternative is to put females in danger, ie females in male prisons and shelters, they are perfectly entitled to use female spaces. Where do you think females with a trans identity should go?

If a transman genuinely passes, I'd expect them to use male facilities, assuming they're happy to do that.

And would the reverse then also apply?

This is something that I have discussed with a few friends before. It is always the m2f trans people that I read about bad experiences or being aggressive to let women speak demonstrations.

I have never read, experienced, heard or seen of anything similar and I know a few f2m trans people IRL.

Seemingly male privelege never goes away.

its very, very hard to change your physical appearance, the size of your hands and feet, the different proportions of shoulder, hip and waist, the leg bones which are shorter in proportion in women. Sticking a bit of facial hair on a born female body , even removing the breasts doesn’t really disguise the basic, instinctive identification. ( I am an artist, and life drawing really demonstrates these differences. Once seen, impossible to unsee).

@Walrussy but would that not put them in danger? Would you put a female in a male psych ward? Or in a male prison? If TW are claiming they would be in danger in those spaces, surely females would be in even more danger no?