Trans-males in female spaces

[itsturtlesallthewaydown]

Virtually all the debates over trans issues is about trans male to female, but 50% [1] are female to male.

I am genuinely curious what the GC line on this is: would a trans-male still be welcome in female only spaces like toilets, changing rooms etc?

If they aren't welcome, even though they were born female, isn't that contradicting that sex is fixed and unchangeable...?

[1] www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/culturalidentity/genderidentity/bulletins/genderidentityenglandandwales/census2021

@MyriadOfTravels - if it happens at all, the number of men who say they are women are to blame.

But I'm surprised your friend is experiencing harassment. Literally in 40 years, it may be the odd question. And of course all women are very obviously women after a conversation even if they don't appear to be so out of the corner of your eye.

I guess there is a fairly fine line between a butch lesbian and a transman, esp how they present to strangers. Family and friends may know that Gill is a butch lesbian and Jack is a transman but the too the stranger in the loo?

Hence another reason why we shouldn't be telling Transmen not to be in the female facilities.

Because they don't really appear male. Transmen can pass better than transwomen but they don't really. In still, carefully angled photos, some do. It real life when we can see the actual shapes of their bodies, see their movement and maybe even hear their voices. A woman is obviously a woman. Human beings are excellent at telling the sex of a person, especially women. We can tell from nothing more than their gait. So we'd tell. It's pretty obvious.

The problem is this idea of ‘passing’ or not. It’s about whether you can fool people into viewing you as the opposite sex.

Toilets are

Toilets are single sex. If only we could just trust people - however they choose to present themselves - to use the ones corresponding to their sex.

I can only speak for myself, but I would be happy to share a space with a transman. That seems the most consistent stand to take and a transman is not the danger to myself and other women that a biological man might be.

There's no gotcha here.

Also if people would just stick to the space that is appropriate for their biology then I wouldn't have tie myself in knots worrying about all the possible scenarios around trans and women's spaces.

Trans men in womens toilets: fine as
dont pose a threat to women

trans men in mens toilets: doesnt bother me as doesn't present a threat to anyone other than the trans men - and that choice is theirs to mae.

men not wanting trans men in mens toilets: their fight.

not an equivalence argument as the main problem with shared sex spaces is the potential threat males pose to females.

But that’s the point.

If we knew people could be trusted to use the appropriate sexed toilet it wouldn’t be an issue would it?

I seem to remember my an era believed women could use the mens but men needed to stay out of the ladies. No idea if it was the law or not but it was a way of combating the massive queues ( which seem to have been addressed these days).

Nope, in a photo possibly staged, possibly edited, maybe. But I just googled Chris and no, doesnt pass. Watch a video of Chris moving and you can tell instantly. If I was to see Chris irl, I could tell. If I was to hear Chris, I could tell.

It's no joke to say women can tell who is a man instantly, so it's not a stretch that we can also tell women.

To be fair it's not women who have an issue with trans men in female-only spaces.

My understanding is it's gay men who are unhappy with trans men going into bath houses etc. I've seen this expressed a number of times online by gay men yet they rarely receive the pile-on that women get for asking their safe spaces to be respected.

There are so many tells. The minute Chris smiles, it's plain that you are looking at a female person. That's even in the Nike advert where Chris is staged to look as manly as possible. I watched a video of Chris talking at a conference and they gave a little happy sigh in the first minute and it was clearly female. I've never, ever seen a man sigh like that. Then there were so many hand and arm gestures and shoulder movements that were obviously female. I couldn't see Chris' hips, but there was a sway to Chris, that comes from female hips. So it's all there.

Sure we don't expect women to have a face altered by high doses of artificial testosterone. And women don't get the same type of muscularity as Chris without taking hormones/steroids. But even with that, people can still tell. The absolute nearest to passing trans people jar our senses because we're seeing two opposing things. The skeleton of one sex, with all it's associated movements, underneath cosmetic features of the opposite. It sets off that 'uncanny valley' perception we can get. And once you know about cross sex hormones, you can use your logic to work out why the person is alerting your perception to something not seeming correct.

The 'it' I used when I typed it was clearly female refers to the sigh, not Chris. I wouldn't refer to a person as 'it' even when I feel like uncomfortably I'm tiptoeing around correct and preferred pronouns.

Of course not.
God forbid women express a need to safeguard themselves from rapists and predators, eh?

@TheShellBeach you realise Transmen are actually female - who want to be men?

Yes of course.
I meant that women DO get a pile on when they say they do not want transwomen (men) in their safe spaces.

@Delphinium20 surely whether there are clues in gait etc depends on when (how young) they transitioned. For clarity, I'm not suggesting trans women should be allowed in female spaces. I'm just wanting to open the discussion to help clarify questions in my mind. On the whole I don't want access for transwomen but when I think about it I do still pause for thought.
If a masculine woman d there'd, how would you know they weren't trans women. I have come across VERY manly women. If a trans woman who transitioned very young entered, even if you were unsure, what would you do? Accuse what might be a woman if not being a woman? Logistically how would anyone monitor or force this?
It goes without saying that one would never be allowed to demand a display of genitals.

If a masculine woman d there'd, how would you know they weren't trans women. I have come across VERY manly women. If a trans woman who transitioned very young entered, even if you were unsure, what would you do? Accuse what might be a woman if not being a woman? Logistically how would anyone monitor or force this?

I wouldn't accuse any person I was unsure of being a man. But if I KNEW (and we know when it's a man, btw, to pretend women don't is a laugh, IMO), sure as shit I'd do what I could depending on how safe I felt.

I've come across some VERY manly women. Genuinely couldn't tell what sex or gender they were. I would hate to be a woman constantly being harassed for using a female loo because people thought I was a bloke

See @journeyofinsanity if we could be sure everyone who entered was female we wouldn’t need to challenge anyone would we? The people to blame for women being challenged in female spaces is those males who felt entitled to barge in there isn’t it?

I do not believe you.

It matters not at all when they transitioned. Male bone structure is Male bone structure. The pelvis doesnt alter despite any drugs and as yet there is no operation to change the pelvis.
See a certain young cyclist. See a Florida born transwoman who was very young on the drugs, had surgery young, does not have a female gait.

If the male pelvis cannot be changed, neither can the female pelvis. I dont know how many times we need to say it, we can tell men, therefore we can tell women.

Plus hands, feet, voice, other things that are little tells that show when someone is a man or woman.

Plus until very recently aside from the vanishingly few trans women our spaces were single sex and I dont recall one instance of a masculine looking woman being harassed for wanting to use single sex womens spaces.
Now of course it's a free for all and they might get asked. Well if it went back to being single sex (no trans women anymore) we wouldnt need to ask. We would know only women would be in there.

I'm sorry if some women are unable to tell the difference between male and female physiology. It must make life very difficult.

I agree. All these people not being able to tell when they have perfect vision and no issues with recognising sex of a female normally must find it difficult. I am losing my sight and find telling in person without my glasses is still reliable when I see them move.

Yes, I've started to wear glasses for driving and today (like every day) I walked the dog. Seeing people approaching 200 yards away, I could tell the sexes of people, even in neutral clothing.

Yes. I can, even in a jacket. Certainly easy enough in running gear from 50 metres away just seeing how people run.

I could even tell without glasses the transitioned male who worked at H&M even though they had all the social cues of a ‘woman’. It was the way that they moved and the brow and facial proportions. All picked up without clear focus.

Because our brain knows.

Yet, we are constantly told we don’t know. Yes. Some people react very quickly and ask a woman by mistake or ignore the clear cues that are there.

The response of many women is to simply reply ‘no, I am a woman’ and the voice then gives it away. Some woman actually thank those asking because they are supporting female only spaces.

Photographs are never a reliable indication of who is and who isn’t. Yet. Photographs are posted as ‘gotchas’. Crack on if you believe that others cannot tell. It must be frustrating if you personally cannot tell and you doubt other’s abilities.