Trans-males in female spaces

[itsturtlesallthewaydown]

Virtually all the debates over trans issues is about trans male to female, but 50% [1] are female to male.

I am genuinely curious what the GC line on this is: would a trans-male still be welcome in female only spaces like toilets, changing rooms etc?

If they aren't welcome, even though they were born female, isn't that contradicting that sex is fixed and unchangeable...?

[1] www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/culturalidentity/genderidentity/bulletins/genderidentityenglandandwales/census2021

Female bodied people are welcome to use any female specific area. Of course they are!

If some females choose to put themselves in a designated male space, then the men can advocate for the protection of their sex based rights (as women are currently doing).

Exactly. And many retain their female socialization. "I'm sorry" and "I think" and other tentative qualifiers are so frequently spoken from transmen that I want to scream, "If you want to try to be a man, at least take on their dominance and confidence behaviors!!!!"

No, because the risks are not symmetrical so the treatment isn't symmetrical either.
Transmen (females) pose no risk in male spaces.
Transwomen (males) do pose a risk in female spaces - obvs this is a statistical average as transwomen as a group have male-pattern offending risks (I have to add this bit of explanation or the hard-of-thinking will accuse me of saying all transwomen are sex-offenders).

"Equality" does not mean treating everyone the same, regardless of risks and outcomes.

Even if they appeared male? How could someone tell they were born female?

The vast majority of transmen I know present as female (albeit butch). Of course they are welcome in a female space.

I think it's very unlikely that a transman who passes as male (presumably after years of hormone treatment and surgery) would use womens loos.

I would welcome all the transmen I've ever noticed. They in no way pass, do not feel in anyway threatening, and wouldn't bother me at all.

Of course I don't speak for all women, but actually as female sexed people they are entitled to use women's spaces.

Men are never entitled to use female spaces, no matter how many people might be comfortable with it.

Should I ever come across a burly, blokey transman in female spaces I'd be really surprised, to be honest. Why would they want to be in the ladies? I might find that tricky.

I would not use the ladies if a transwomen was there. I just wouldn't.

Transmen (females) pose no risk in male spaces.
Transwomen (males) do pose a risk in female spaces - obvs this is a statistical average as transwomen as a group have male-pattern offending risks (I have to add this bit of explanation or the hard-of-thinking will accuse me of saying all transwomen are sex-offenders).
"Equality" does not mean treating everyone the same, regardless of risks and outcomes.

This. The only reason women's toilets (and refuges and prisions...) exist at all is because of the risks posed by males when they have access to women in vulnerable positions.

There are a few high profile trans men, none of them pass.
Again like with men, we can tell.
Ok they definitely pass better than the other way around, but it's not enough. The gait the voice, the hands, feet, etc. All the same things we use to clock men, even in our peripheral vision. Women are really really good at noticing men, so obviously we will be really really good at seeing if it's not a man, it must therefore be a woman.

If by some chance they have a neo penis, it too doesnt pass.
Are they welcome in with me, yes, they are women.
Will they want to be in with me, I doubt it but still they are welcome.

Transmen (females) pose no risk in male spaces.
Transwomen (males) do pose a risk in female spaces - obvs this is a statistical average as transwomen as a group have male-pattern offending risks (I have to add this bit of explanation or the hard-of-thinking will accuse me of saying all transwomen are sex-offenders).

@Stillcountingbeans Transmen may not pose a risk as such but why should men have their privacy invaded and why should they be put at risk of false accusations.

We have to be consistent in arguments TWANW TMANM

My point was more that men would be listened to if they said their dignity and modesty were bring compromised (it’s not just about safety)

Elliot page jumped to my mind too - looks nothing like a man despite clear concerted attempt to imitate a male swagger. There are no clothes which are 'dressing like a man', so it's really unclear on what basis Elliot, and other like Elliot, think they have 'transitioned'. So for me - yes female spaces are for female. I don't share any identity characteristics with most other females so it's not really an issue that I also don't with transmen.

Otherwise, my assumption would be that trans men would want to be in facilities usually used by males, as to remain in female spaces would be dysphoric and triggering. So I wouldn't expect they'd want to use womens toilets, and I don't care if they use the mens. That would be for men to object to, if they feel unhappy with that.

im sorry but I have an issue with that.
if a transman would find it triggering to be in a female space then it should be ok to say than its triggering for a trans woman to be in a men space. And you would expect them to neither trans men and trans women to want to share the facilities of their sex.

we can’t have one rule for one rule for the others. It’s either sex segregated or gender segregated because atm there isn’t such place to accommodate anything else.

The problem fur me is that either is unmanageable. Some trans men DO PASS AS MEN so the question of whether they are breaking the rules will still be there. (And so do some trans women pass as women)
So atm we have no way to know if one is at the right place it not. And the ones ,losing are still women - because the less feminine women, incl butch women, will carry on having issues being recognised as women.

@Hobbi - that article you linked to includes references to a report which no longer exists and some op-eds which tell a depressingly familiar tale of poor mental health, self harm, and abusive relationships ,none of which chime with the prevailing narrative of the trans happy ever after.

First of all, let's not confuse the words male with man, or female with woman.
Female and male are biological descriptors, and it really is not possible to change sex. That is a fact. So you are talking about a transman, which referes to a female who identifies as a man ( male stereotypical dress, hair cut, testosterone leading to facial hair etc).

Quite frankly, even though many younger women can far more easily pass as a younger, feminine looking male, than the other way around ( man pass as a woman) - to my eyes you can always tell. In fact I not infrequently see young women walking around in the city in which I live, and I can always see immediately that they are female, even when they have beards or other facial hair.

I'm personally happy for a transman to use the women's facilities, and I suspect that many actually prefer to use women's toilets than men's toilets for all of the obvious reasons. And considering that many transmen are same sex attracted I can well understand that they may often feel more at home in lesbian groups than they would in male groups.

I recall one young detransitioner who recalled how she had always loved basketball, and so when still trans identified played with a men's team - and she explained how she never felt at all comfortable with that; but after she de-transitioned she started playing with a women's ( lesbian) team and that felt much better; like she had now found her true tribe.

I guess the reasons behind the transition may have as much to do with how comfortable a transman is with using the facilities of the same sex, as opposed to the opposite sex.

I agree that we have to be completely consistent in arguing that TWANW and TMANM.
But that does not then lead to the conclusion that transmen should be forbidden from using the male toilets (just because we argue that transwomen should be forbidden from using the female toilets).

It is a 'double standard' - for very good reasons!

Do men really care about transmen "invading their privacy and offending their dignity"? Or is that a made-up argument?

And why throw in the spurious argument that transmen might put men "at risk of false accusations" - where did that come from?

You can usually tell. As mentioned in previous post. Sometimes they may look a little androgynous, and you are not quite sure, to begin, with whether they are a small, feminine looking young man, or a girl with short hair and tom boy'ish attire. But generally, your 'sixth' sense, or whatever that instinctive radar is, tunes in pretty quickly.

I don't think I've met a trans person who passes as the opposite sex they want to be, on closer examination.

I would look twice at anyone who looked like a man in a woman's loo or changing room, however they were dressed, possibly even challenge them. This might end up a bit awkward if it is a woman or one who wants to be a man, but there it is. Mostly you can tell if the person presenting as male is actually female.

And now men feel they can freely wander into women's loos and changing rooms, however they are dressed, it is more of an issue.
People who dress as the opposite sex take the chance of being challenged in the wrong space.
It probably goes without saying that men in dresses are still men, and I don't want men in women's spaces, however sparkly they look.

Men are also free to challenge anyone who is not a man in their own spaces, if they feel the need. It isn't my area.

A tricky question for me. My starting point is that the oppression of women and girls is sex-based at its root, and that feminist activism should therefore prioritise fighting sex-based discrimination, sexism, sexual violence against women and girls, and the still common view that the female sex is simply the inferior sex.

Transmen are female, so in that sense many of the difficulties they face will be about sex-based issues, but those transmen who pass will reap male privilege (the average earnings of transmen rise after transitioning, though not much). Yet they still have female reproductive systems and might face sex-based obstacles in that field. Clearly, feminism would also benefit them if it gets/keeps abortion legalised etc. But they could also benefit from some anti-feminist policies that out-of-closet-wombcarriers will not.

The big problem I have is with those transmen who have openly excluded themselves from the sex class which used to be called women, and who insist that the new identity class 'women' should consist of only individuals who are feminine, i.e., submissive, passive, emotional and nurturing, which they are not. This turns my sex class and my embodied identity into sexist caricatures.

So those activists in this group (and many, many nonbinary-identifying female people) in my opinion are doing damage to feminism and the vast majority of women and girls by trying to erase our embodied identities and by making what looks to me like private contracts with the 'patriarchy' to both get all the benefits from feminism (repro rights for 'uterus-havers') and to escape being treated with sexism and misogyny.

That they seem to treat me and other bog-standard women with some contempt hurts and angers me. At the same time, they remain female, and in that sense my feminism would also cover their sex-based mistreatment. But I would not go out of my way to erase my own identity to include them in some group they have voluntarily first left.

I'm happy to have transmales in women spaces. Biology doesn't change and they don't have penises. They can dress up and take hormones but they still have no Y chromosomes.

do wonder how the fuck this got into such a mess, and why now....things seemed to exist for years without this being so complicated

Because the tiny number of transexuals were almost always gay males with severe dysphoria with gatekeeping to keep out the fetishistic cross dressers and AGP'S. The ones now claiming 'trans' doesn't mean dysphoria and wanting women's protections and child safeguarding removed.

The problems came when these men started claiming they actually ARE women and telling us our sex class was now a mixed category and we must budge up while they fuck us over. Pure male entitlement.

Genuine question - as to me, this indicates the problem is not with genuine trans people, but those that EXPLOIT self ID to gain access, rather than an actual genuine trans person?

Genuine question - what is a genuine trans person? How do we tell the difference between real and fake?
Is it someone with dysphoria? Because that's no longer necessary apparently.
Anyone that says they are? Like Isla Bryon and all the other sex offenders? Acceptance without exception no?
Someone who has 'fully transitioned'. Most of the men who say they are women keep their fully functioning male genitalia.

Self ID is utter horseshit.
Making and changing laws to force people to go along with someone else's self image or to pander to poor mental health is absurd.

I'd be interested to hear from actual women who want to be perceived as men. What do you want?

The problem is that we just don't care about our spaces in that way.

(Aside from historically, where men were fiercely protective of their golf clubs, gentleman's clubs etc. I presume the reason for that was having somewhere to hide from "the wife")

We're not generally at risk of violence from women, our world records aren't at risk from women, so it doesn't really bother us if they're in our spaces.

The only reason I'd care about a trans man in the male toilets is that they'd be hogging the limited number of cubicles, and I get spectacular stage fright so hate the urinals!

Stillcountingbeans · Today 16:56

^Do men really care about transmen "invading their privacy and offending their dignity"?

It wouldn't bother me in the slightest. To be honest, the antisocialisation of the men's facilities would mean that they were not acknowledged either way. We go in, studiously avoid eye contact and leave.

Why is it the problem of women who need single sex female spaces to sort out everyone else?

It isn't. Female people need female only spaces for equality of access. End of.

Male people wishing to use female spaces need to respect this. They certainly expect a lot of respect from everyone else, and if they care about equality and inclusion and expect others to provide it for them, they need to equally respect and provide it for everyone else.

Male people who do not want female people in their spaces will have to sort out their own issues, we're busy.

Female people who have created a major issue for themselves in using spaces where females may become alarmed or distressed at their presence because of the degree of their appearance change will also need to sort out their own arrangements.

#Notyourmum

Plus: this kind of query is usually nothing more than a barely figleafed attempt to punish and discourage women for daring to say they refuse to accepted being excluded by men. <shrug> "If you don't let men in your spaces then you'll get women with a masculine appearance and then you'll be sorry".

It's not exactly a classy or helpful thing to do really.

The toilets system worked, not perfectly, but sort of worked because most people accepted the rules. The debate now is based on the assumption that this implicit social contract no longer exists and that some will insist on disregarding it.

Once you have that, then it is possible to ask how some people now can be kept out of single-sex toilets when they refuse to choose the option matching their sex.

The reframing of this problem matters. When we are asked if we should now have genital inspectors at the doors of women's toilets we should remind the questioner that in the past (and even today) most people were aware which toilets were for which genitals.

I think some men do care particularly in spaces like changing rooms and hospital wards.

The rules need to be consistent.