Trans-males in female spaces

[itsturtlesallthewaydown]

Virtually all the debates over trans issues is about trans male to female, but 50% [1] are female to male.

I am genuinely curious what the GC line on this is: would a trans-male still be welcome in female only spaces like toilets, changing rooms etc?

If they aren't welcome, even though they were born female, isn't that contradicting that sex is fixed and unchangeable...?

[1] www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/culturalidentity/genderidentity/bulletins/genderidentityenglandandwales/census2021

I think most of us are perfectly happy sharing single-sex spaces with biological females, however they identify. There is a problem of course that if they look sufficiently male to pass, they may be challenged. But that is entirely a problem of their own making.

I'm the mean Lesbian! I don't want any trans men ( aka women who want to be men) in my Lesbian social groups. If they hate being a woman and want to resemble a man hang out somewhere else.
As for bathrooms, if they pass no. Women are in danger from men. We don't need the anxiety.
I really don't care about the problems of trans people. I care about women.

No the reverse doesn’t apply - women in mens toilets are not a threat to men, men in women’s toilets are (there may the odd exception before you find one!)

Completely happy to share spaces with female people however they identify.

Single sex in all its glorious diverse presentations.

Men commit 98% of sexual crime and the majority of violent crime. I think they also pass far less well than they think they do, and i really dont trust their judgement enough. So no, I don't want males in women's spaces.

No, I've said on page one I think prisons and refuges are a different thing entirely.
And if a transman who passes (a small minority, I reckon) isn't happy to use male facilities then I wouldn't want them to feel forced to.

@itsturtlesallthewaydown you didn’t ask how we would know they were female, you asked if we objected in principle.
There is no objection in principle as they are female.
If the system wasn’t such a mess there would also be no problem recognising that a transmale was biologically female, as transfemales would never have been allowed or encouraged to use female only spaces on the first place. We could then safely presume that all using female facilities were biologically female.

@HairyKitty that would at least be consistent! I do wonder how the fuck this got into such a mess, and why now....things seemed to exist for years without this being so complicated.

We need men to start complaining about their spaces - imagine how quickly they would be listened to

They are female and belong in female spaces.
They may still need to use the sanitary bins and some men may well object to females in males spaces.

If males in dresses 👗 are still male and should be in the male facilities then females in jeans 👖 are still female and belong in the female facilities.

I'd just make all male facilities "open" but I appreciate that probably wouldn't go down well with a lot of men, who want their privacy! My priority is that women have a space they can go to feel safe, and if there is a genuinely passing transman present (a tiny minority but still), I don't think that quite works.

If I saw them in the toilets I would probably just assume they were a butch lesbian, so no, it wouldn’t bother me.

Female sex in places divided by biology so very obviously that's transmen welcome in female spaces. It's not hard. Try logical thinking, I recommend it.

The exception is doping in sports (so that's testosterone). Unfair advantage whatever reason it's done for.

Fucksake.
You wonder why they bother.
What a palaver.
And can someone pass the slices of lemon for my G & T, please?

Assuming your question is in good faith, and wondering why you're obsessed with where violence occurs, it seems yes:
www.advocate.com/commentary/2015/07/23/op-ed-trans-men-experience-far-more-violence-most-people-assume#toggle-gdpr

It's really sad. There are several stages of surgery and while I can't remember the statistics, there's a fairly high chance of it all going wrong. There are women who were perfectly physically healthy, in their early 20s, who are now incontinent and using catheters and talking about having to wear nappies. It's scandalous.

Mmm! Many transmen 'pass' enough to cause some anxiety response in women.

So, whilst I acknowledge they are female, my answer is no. Transmen do not get automatic access to all female spaces.

But I work for a crisis centre and the few transmen we have had referred to us have understood the issues they raise and (unlike the few transwomen we have had referred) choose to use a nearby service that has a group specifically for trans individuals.

Public loos etc? Because of the actions of TRAs, Stonewall et al I have lost all patience and empathy and would probably object. If a person chooses to 'other' themselves to that extent then they have to expect to be treated differently. Regardless of sex.

I've got fresh lime. Or squeezy lemon shaped bottle of lemon juice

Personally I'd be happy with any female using female spaces, regardless of 'identity'. Actually I'd prefer that then the thought of a fellow female endanger themselves by using the male facilities, but it's not up to me to police others safety choices.

Should they be allowed the male facilities? That's not really up to me either. It would be reasonable for male people to object to their dignity being infringed upon, even without the safty concerns females have. But it would be up to male people to raise that objection themselves.

In person, I've never met a transman who passes once you see and talk with them up close, even those whose friends fawn over them as if they do (due to my personal circumstances, I know a lot of transmen). Even those with oodles of money to spend on surgery and good PR photo placement like Elliot Page don't pass when Access Hollywood takes a photo. I'll admit some women, not just transmen, at first glance can appear male. In those cases when I see her in a women's space, I assume it's a woman who is gender non-conforming or is built taller/stronger than the average woman.

Also, let's be honest, the transwomen who want to use women's facilities go out of their way to dress the part of an objectified sexualized woman. They are COMPLETELY obvious to us. Transmen and sex stereotypes non-conforming women, women who are wearing baggy jeans and short hair no makeup - yeah, we can tell the difference between ourselves and the males.

All women are welcome in female sex-separated spaces.

Walrussy · Today 14:56

Protecting men's spaces from females isn't my concern.

It's vanishingly unlikely that a man will need protecting from a woman, in a men's toilet. It's not like, "Erm, WTF? This is the men's, ladies is the next door..." is going to result in anything other than bewilderment and possibly embarrassing.

Females get access to female single sex spaces.
It's not hard.

The few transmen I have met looked more like butch women than men. And it's perfectly possible to grow a post-menopausal beard without a doctor's assistance, so even that does not bother me.

Transmen are at the same risk of male violence as the rest of us. They still have height/weight disadvantage they were born with, along with female socialisation.

The only thing that gives me pause are sports where testosterone levels give them an unfair advantage.

The irony here is why would they care? Men know transmen are no threat to them. In fact, men know OTHER men can be a threat to them, and if given a choice of prison roommates, a man would choose a transman every time because they pose no risk and may pose an opportunity.

We all know who the men and who the women are. I'm so sick of pretending we don't.