Trans-males in female spaces

[itsturtlesallthewaydown]

Virtually all the debates over trans issues is about trans male to female, but 50% [1] are female to male.

I am genuinely curious what the GC line on this is: would a trans-male still be welcome in female only spaces like toilets, changing rooms etc?

If they aren't welcome, even though they were born female, isn't that contradicting that sex is fixed and unchangeable...?

[1] www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/culturalidentity/genderidentity/bulletins/genderidentityenglandandwales/census2021

I think I would be inclined to do this. An open / mixed sex facility for men (however they identify) and any female people who do not feel comfortable using the ladies and then a women's only facility for all the women who want to keep to a single-sex approach.

And I wonder if men would even care. I've never heard men complain about female people using their facilities. There are no campaigns around this issue. I've never heard men say they feel threatened or at risk by having to share facilities with TM.

If things continue the way they are this is the least worst option for women and girls and that's who I really care about. Atm it is the women's facilities that are being changed to mixed-sex and the men get to keep theirs. This needs reversing I think.

@MrsTerryPratchett
Spot on. Men and women are not the same and the relationship is not symmetrical. Women who claim to be men, if they are taking testosterone, are a bit more aggressive than other women, but nothing like male levels - which of course includes men claiming to be women.

@itsturtlesallthewaydown
I think if a woman passes so well as a man that they could trigger PTSD, they probably do use the men's toilets. Which is fine as far as I'm concerned because they pose no threat to men. They don't attack them or install hidden cameras. There are no sanitary bins to raid. The only danger is to the female, really. If men don't like it they can speak up, but going on anecdotal evidence, they really don't care either way whether people of either sex use their facilities. Unlike women, men do literally just pee in public toilets. No period pants or menstrual cups. They don't routinely have to partially undress to use the urinals or toilets. A few women who claim to be men have said, either on this board or on twitter, that they make special arrangements and use neither the men's nor the women's loos. Regarding rape crisis, hospital wards, these females are going to need specialist care if they have medically transitioned anyway.
It's simply not the case that what is sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander, which is the premise of your thread. Women are not a threat to men. Females and males claim a special identity for very different reasons.

The rules need to be consistent.

I wonder why do the rules need to be consistent?

Men are not adversely affected by women in the same way that women are adversely affected by men. Until men stop raping, flashing, harassing, groping, touching and making women feel uncomfortable it is perfectly reasonable that the solution to this is be one-sided.

Exactly.

Completely agree. This is more about equity than equality. Women, due to our sex-based biological needs/risks/vulnerabilities need same-sex spaces. Men don't. If we ONLY looked at men's needs, we could argue easily for unisex spaces everywhere and we could argue for open sporting competitions (men would lose nothing, women would lose everything). We don't have consistent rules for men and women in specific sex-different areas.

Also, no man is at risk of a woman being in their prisons. All women are at risk of men in their prisons.

@NotHavingIt
Woman/man and male/female are all biological descriptors. The first pair are a bit more specific, ie they refer to adult humans.
If you want a word to describe feminine/effeminate behaviour or gender expression, invent one.

Exactly

Ok.

How about the rule 'inclusion matters for everyone' and 'everyone should have accessible provision' be consistent? Just for starters.

Sorry Signalbox, was agreeing with you there if not clear enough!

I'll still say rules need to be consistent.

Because we aren't just talking toilets here we're talking everything, single sex, from inc hospital wards and changing rooms.

Young boys can be every bit as body conscious as girls. Same with older men. Urinals arent always very private. Everyone is vulnerable in hospital.

Why should men and boys have to compromise their privacy for some females who want to be men?

😂

urgh. These genuine posters with genuine questions are tedious.

Where’s the booze?

I’ve got gin, vodka, wine or whisky? @hryllilegur and cheese straws?

I'll have another gin whilst you've got the bottle open. I'll pass on the cheese straws though. Datun had stuffed us all with cheese over in the KJK v the police thread.

Buuuuuurp!

triple for you @Boiledbeetle ? It’s a 3l one. Plenty for all.

I’ll have it all, frankly, if there are ‘genuine’ questions to answer. 🥃🍷🍸

Very welcome if they wanted to - especially if it was a safety issue for them

Some trans men, think buck angel, do pass, obvs not naked as buck still has a fanny, so I think the only way forward is to have third spaces, women, men and then the gender neutral/trans crew, cos some TM do pass and we would just think it's a man.... even if they are not, how would we know....

@MyriadOfTravels
Im sorry but I have an issue with that
if a transman would find it triggering to be in a female space then it should be ok to say than its triggering for a trans woman to be in a men space. And you would expect them to neither trans men and trans women to want to share the facilities of their sex.

we can’t have one rule for one rule for the others. It’s either sex segregated or gender segregated because atm there isn’t such place to accommodate anything else.

Its a hypothetical situation working on the assumption that both genders of trans people would prefer to use their re assigned gendered toilet.
Being triggered isn’t the issue as to sex segregated spaces. There’s no reason shared or individual spaces can be provided for most things including prison to prevent anyone being triggered However most trans people say that’s uninclusive even if they know in reality a female identifying as a male is going to have real problems sharing a cell in prison with natal men
So maybe men don’t want trans men in their loos either. Loos are single sex and trans men are in fact female.

There was an incident a few years ago when a trans male went to a gay men-only sauna, and was thrown out, and then complained

The sauna apologised but did point out that the make clientele had complained to the manager when they had seen their naked form

Why should men and boys have to compromise their privacy for some females who want to be men?

I think because society is fast moving on and I think insisting that very masculinised TM continue to use the ladies is completely unrealistic. I also think it's unrealistic to insist that very feminised TW continue to use the mens. I'm not saying that I think this is right I just don't think it's realistic.

So there needs to be a solution. At the moment it is female services that are most under attack (women's toilets change to unisex whilst men keep theirs) and yet it is women who are most affected and tirelessly campaigning to maintain their spaces.

There are no campaigns calling for privacy and dignity and safety for men. Men are not afraid of women. Most boys will go into changing areas with their mothers until the age of 8 or so and I doubt the occasional masculinised woman in their space will freak them out if they even notice.

Society is changing but women still need protection and dignity and space away from males. A compromise needs to be made (unless third spaces are mandated) and I think on this occasion it is men who need to make the compromise because it is men who make it necessary for women to have to have separate spaces in the first place. It is the least they can do.

Link here:

www.attitude.co.uk/news/world/london-gay-sauna-kicks-out-trans-man-for-not-having-a-penis-297475/

She wouldn't have a penis: women don't!

Who is going to check the degree of transition exactly??

And what are we going to do with all the women who cannot use mixed sex spaces even when the male person has had extensive cosmetic surgery?