Transwoman in the changing room at school pool

[PoolFloat]

My mum goes to aqua aerobics classes at a sports club in a private school. Recently, a transwoman has joined the class. My mum was told that they use a different changing room to the one next to the pool but today they came out of the pool and put their swimming hat into a locker before returning to the pool to join the class (there is adult free swim beforehand).

The club has a safeguarding policy which states they will: prioritise the safety and well-being of children and adults at risk

I'm not sure if my mum is considered at risk? She is 88 and nearly all the women in the class are in their 70s and 80s.

The changing room has a communal area with only four cubicles so most women get changed in the communal area. Now they are reluctant to do so.

My mum has asked me to help her draft a letter from the women in the class saying how uncomfortable they are that this person is in their changing room but doesn't know how to word it.

Can anyone help please?

[FOJN]

Does her being trans make her more of a threat than any other women? Would a lesbian, for example, be treated with the same assumptions?

There are no "other" women in the situation, there is a man and there are women. Yes men are more of a threat to women than lesbians on account of their sex. It is sex and not sexual attraction which determines the level of risk. There are plenty of stats to support that claim.

Tell me again how gender ideology isn't lesbophobic but apparently it's the women being mean spirited. FFS

[Apollo442]

Any male with the entitlement to barge into the women and girl's changing area is, by definition, someone who should not be there.

[JasmineVioletRose]

@Noonecaresifyounamechange

I think the reasons you’re finding it hard to word is because you’re wrong. The “person” is a women, who has ever right to be there.

Out of curiosity, how do you know she is trans?

Does her being trans make her more of a threat than any other women? Would a lesbian, for example, be treated with the same assumptions?

This person is male if they have a penis.

[puffyisgood]

@Lollypip

This is very presumptive. So, even if she is biologically male (have they seen the naked parts?) who says she is interested in women? Or assaulting elderly ladies? I know women who share beds etc with gay male friends. Should they be terrified incase those friends decide because they have a penis they should assault someone? Maybe they should attempt to say hello to this person and see them as a person who just wants a quiet swim. I'm sure life has been cruel enough to them. Fair enough if she was making advances or being threatening but... Using a locker?!

What an absurd post. This is about risk involving a stranger whose intentions you have to take on pure trust/blind faith.

e.g. a couple of years ago I'd have been more than happy for my brother, a heterosexual man in his 30s, to help my [then] young daughter get changed before and after swimming. Because I know and trust him.

would I have been happy about a volunteer man of the same age, who was a stranger to me, volunteer to do the same when my daughter's primary school went on a school swimming lesson? emphatically no.

[SallyLockheart]

I started a conversation about what the sports centre I go to would do about trans women in the changing room. It was a good attempt but not perfect. We got into the rights of religious minorities - Muslim women in particular - and got sidetracked by requirements for single sex swimming - ie blinds drawn on windows - and then veered into experience of trans women that the chap I was talking knew about. He said, more of less, it wasn’t really a problem and I made the point about women being pushed to the side to accommodate man and why couldn’t men be more accommodating and kind in the mens facilities.

I really wish I had asked the question, if there was a trans women who wanted to change in the women’s section and a woman who didn’t want a man with full genitalia (however they described themselves) in the changing room, whose's point of view and wishes (and rights in terms of single sex provision) would they recognise? Ie how many women’s opinions are worth one trans women’s wishes. And their wishes as gender identity is not a protected characteristic.

it was a good practice run though. 😀

[PutinIsAWarCriminal]

I think @hearmywomanlyroar summed it up nicely there. We shouldn't be burdened with having to explain cleverly why we don't feel safe sharing our changing rooms with males, the powers that be should respect the fact that women and girls need / deserve the dignity of sex segregated safe spaces.

[PutinIsAWarCriminal]

I made the point about women being pushed to the side to accommodate man and why couldn’t men be more accommodating and kind in the mens facilities this point needs to be shouted from the rooftops.

[SolasAnla]

Op read through the link below

fairplayforwomen.com/equality-act-2010_womens-rights/

I would not get fancy in the letter just ask if the school is going to avail of the single sex exemption (or not) to lawfully exclude all male persons from the womens communally changing areas.

If they are going to avail of the exemption could they clearly detail via a map which areas were single sex and which are mixed sex.

If they confirm they will provide single sex provision a follow up letter could ask about communicating that to all members.

If there is a minimum of signage ask if they plan to improve this

If they plan to provide all the users with a copy of the map
This would avoid members accessing the communal areas they should not be using and avoid any confusion or embarrassment.

Etc

[tellmewhentheLangshiplandscoz]

I think the OP is expressing concerns that a biological male is changing with her elderly mother. Or are you one of those people who thinks a penis is a female sex organ?

/// Quite.

OP there's a depressing pattern today on MN of posters who believe a biological male and his feelings and "right to be" - WTAF that means - is more important than safeguarding kids and vulnerable adults.

I don't know your mum but yes she could quite rightly be in this bracket

[tellmewhentheLangshiplandscoz]

@CatsOperatingInGangs

Humans, like all mammals, instinctively sex people they come across. It happens without us thinking about it.

This.

It's literally what often keeps us safe.

[Mummyoflittledragon]

I would think an elderly woman would be considered at risk. Can you / your mum discuss this with the person, who oversees the lessons?

[tellmewhentheLangshiplandscoz]

@picklemewalnuts

Women have all sorts of crap thrown at them from morning to night, and go to women's swimming groups to escape it.

Can you imagine how sick and tired you'd be of it by the time your 80 too?

[SirChenjins]

I would just say that she and the other women do not feel comfortable or safe in varying states of undress in a changing area that’s being used by a man, and ask the management how they plan to ensure that the women don’t have to give up their private space.

[Musomama1]

@Lollypip

This is very presumptive. So, even if she is biologically male (have they seen the naked parts?) who says she is interested in women? Or assaulting elderly ladies? I know women who share beds etc with gay male friends. Should they be terrified incase those friends decide because they have a penis they should assault someone? Maybe they should attempt to say hello to this person and see them as a person who just wants a quiet swim. I'm sure life has been cruel enough to them. Fair enough if she was making advances or being threatening but... Using a locker?!

Well how on earth do women know who is safe and who isn't? Your friends know their male friends, they wouldn't be doing that with complete strangers so it's hardly a comparison. What is the point of single sex spaces in the first place? They are because we obviously don't know male strangers.

By this logic all women are being dreadfully unkind to all males then by closing them off from their changing rooms?

[puffyisgood]

@Noonecaresifyounamechange

I think the reasons you’re finding it hard to word is because you’re wrong. The “person” is a women, who has ever right to be there.

Out of curiosity, how do you know she is trans?

Does her being trans make her more of a threat than any other women? Would a lesbian, for example, be treated with the same assumptions?

seriously, as already pointed out, the intuition and empirical evidence are as one on this: (1) males are incomparably more prone to violent crime than females; (2) 'trans women' are very much male in this regard (as, indeed, they are in almost any other tangible regard that I can think of).

[DysonSphere]

@hearmywomanlyroar

For the faux confused. Here are the reasons to exclude trans women from women's changing rooms:

1. Women are entitled to single sex spaces.

The end.

Right. But somehow people insist on seeing room for ambiguity.

[tellmewhentheLangshiplandscoz]

@Bodice

What about the fact they weee actively staring at the little girls. Do we just have to ignore creepy behavior now because it’s their right?

Hey Bodice do you mean the other thread? X

[Itsokay2020]

@Lollypip

“I know women who share beds etc with gay male friends. Should they be terrified incase those friends decide because they have a penis they should assault someone?”

Absolutely no comparison; the women you refer to have made an informed choice, and you say it yourself, they share beds with their gay male friends.

The OP refers to a situation which is making a group of elderly women uncomfortable within what was considered a safe space for them. They do not know this individual, do not know their motive (40 year old TW attending aqua aerobics with women in their 70s and 80s?) and this scenario is becoming more and more widely reported.

How would I feel if I came across a TW in the changing room of my gym (a well known chain across the UK)? I wouldn’t be happy. If boys over the age of 7 aren’t allowed in there, nor should TW. It truly is lunacy. For the same reason, it’s considered best practice to not allow male cleaners in the female changing rooms and vice versa.

It’s a changing room for heavens sake - why can’t areas like this be allowed to function in the way they were intended without a minority trying to flex the rules for their own agenda.

[Bergamotte]

Noonecaresifyounamechange
"Out of curiosity, how do you know she is trans?"

You have a point: might not be a trans woman, just a man who has thought up a scheme to get access to vulnerable women while they undress.

Of course I'm not suggesting this is the case for the individual in question.

[CatsAreCrackers]

@Noonecaresifyounamechange

I think the reasons you’re finding it hard to word is because you’re wrong. The “person” is a women, who has ever right to be there.

Out of curiosity, how do you know she is trans?

Does her being trans make her more of a threat than any other women? Would a lesbian, for example, be treated with the same assumptions?

No, I'm afraid YOU are wrong. The person may FEEL like a woman, however, they are in fact a man, because they have a penis. That is the difference.

And actually, I personally think, in this situation, threat from this person is irrelevant. They are almost certainly not a threat and are probably, generally, a nice person. However, if they really were nice, they would understand and realise they are making elderly ladies uncomfortable and mitigate that by not going into their space. No woman should have to worry about being naked in front of someone who has a penis.

[PoolFloat]

@Aurora231

As far as I can tell she (I don’t believe you can change biological sex but I am happy to use somebody’s preferred pronouns) hasn’t actually done anything at all other than use a locker?! She didn’t get changed with your elderly mother, she didn’t get naked in front of the other biological women, she just quickly put a swim cap in a locker? Maybe there weren’t any other lockers available where she did get changed?
you’re all assuming she’s about to assault somebody, which is unfair.

They walked through a changing room where women were getting changed.

They don't have to 'do' anything.

Male bodied people do not belong in spaces where women are in a state of undress

[Ereshkigalangcleg]

They walked through a changing room where women were getting changed.

They don't have to 'do' anything.

Male bodied people do not belong in spaces where women are in a state of undress

This. It's like people think women's feelings, our privacy and dignity don't matter at all. Pure sexism.

[Dreamwhisper]

This just smacks of transphobia to me. Single sex spaces should be protected where the ends justifies the means, sure - i.e. women only DV and sexual violence support, and such settings designed specifically for women in vulnerable positions.

Every day life is not a place where you can demand single sex spaces in all situations precisely because it puts trans people in an impossible position.

OP you should know well enough that you could call or ring them to discuss this and they would either oblige you or tell you they don't feel the need to do anything.

You've posted this in mumsnet sex and gender so you clearly know what's what and just wanted everyone to agree with how awful it is that this poor transwoman did something you don't agree with.

[Ereshkigalangcleg]

Every day life is not a place where you can demand single sex spaces in all situations precisely because it puts trans people in an impossible position.

Women should have single sex spaces anywhere they take their clothes off.

What is this "impossible position" that means males can't use the appropriate space for their sex?

[Fladdermus]

I honestly don't understand why people don't get why this is an issue. I'm an older lady and I feel extremely uncomfortable getting dried and changed after a shower in front of my husband. So uncomfortable in fact that he wouldn't dare come into the bedroom while I'm doing it. So why on earth is it ok to expect me to accept doing so in front of a biological male who is a complete stranger to me?