Transwoman in the changing room at school pool

[PoolFloat]

My mum goes to aqua aerobics classes at a sports club in a private school. Recently, a transwoman has joined the class. My mum was told that they use a different changing room to the one next to the pool but today they came out of the pool and put their swimming hat into a locker before returning to the pool to join the class (there is adult free swim beforehand).

The club has a safeguarding policy which states they will: prioritise the safety and well-being of children and adults at risk

I'm not sure if my mum is considered at risk? She is 88 and nearly all the women in the class are in their 70s and 80s.

The changing room has a communal area with only four cubicles so most women get changed in the communal area. Now they are reluctant to do so.

My mum has asked me to help her draft a letter from the women in the class saying how uncomfortable they are that this person is in their changing room but doesn't know how to word it.

Can anyone help please?

[SolasAnla]

@ToppCat

Have you not heard of mixed changing areas? I have used several and people (men, women, children and trans) all use cubicles. There is never a problem and no-one is interested in the other pool users. Oh and the showers are mixed too. I don’t know what you think is going to happen to your mother. Trans women also need somewhere to change and privacy and are entitled to protection. I suggest forcing them to use men’s changing rooms wouldn’t necessarily be safe for them.

Which is it @ToppCat

a) do you strip off your swimsuit (so that you are naked in a communal mixed sex changing room with other random males and females), dry your self off, dress in dry clothing, and leave?

Or

b) leave the communal area which is reserved as access only space and enter a use a single sex cubicle before you strip off your swimsuit?


Plus what do you think is going to happen to the male if he uses the men's changing room? What would he need protection from that the OP's mother has no equal need of protection from??

[wellhelloitsme]

@VestofAbsurdity

And once we did share our thoughts, we were called bigots.

and much worse, including death threats, rape threats, threats of sexual violence, threats to report to employers, calls for us to be sacked, doxxed, the list goes on and on and on. And they wonder why women feel unsafe sharing spaces with people who do that, it's one helluva mystery.

Absolutely.

"Suck on my lady dick" is always a highlight.

terfisaslur.com

[wellhelloitsme]

Trans women also need somewhere to change and privacy and are entitled to protection.

So are women.

I suggest forcing them to use men’s changing rooms wouldn’t necessarily be safe for them.

I suggest forcing women to share a changing room with natal males wouldn't necessarily be safe for them and also violates their right to dignity and privacy from male bodied people.

I wish TRAs who wish for women to share their single sex spaces with male bodied people, despite it creating a currently absent risk that keeps women statistically incredibly safer than they are in mixed sex spaces, would just be honest... when it comes down to it, they think that if push comes to shove the safety, dignity, privacy and comfort of natal women is less important than that of natal men.

[ToppCat]

@SolasAnla

Which is it @ToppCat

a) do you strip off your swimsuit (so that you are naked in a communal mixed sex changing room with other random males and females), dry your self off, dress in dry clothing, and leave?

Or

b) leave the communal area which is reserved as access only space and enter a use a single sex cubicle before you strip off your swimsuit?


Plus what do you think is going to happen to the male if he uses the men's changing room? What would he need protection from that the OP's mother has no equal need of protection from??

I think I was clear. Everyone changes in a cubicle. It’s really not a problem. My point was that everyone deserves privacy when they are changing and this gives it.

[EmpressaurusWitchDoesntBurn]

@ToppCat

I think I was clear. Everyone changes in a cubicle. It’s really not a problem. My point was that everyone deserves privacy when they are changing and this gives it.

But that doesn't help the OP's mum & her friends who are stuck with a communal space & only a few cubicles.

[wellhelloitsme]

@ToppCat

I think I was clear. Everyone changes in a cubicle. It’s really not a problem.

There are 4 cubicles in OP's mums changing room and 22 elderly women in her class.

Are you seriously saying that if they are uncomfortable with a male bodied person potentially walking in again, those elderly women should queue up in their towels and wait to use the cubicles one by one?

Rather than the trans woman using the separate changing room available to them?

If the wants of one natal man outweigh the needs of 22 elderly women, you need to ask yourself whether you can really claim to respect women as much as you respect men.

[Zerogravity]

@ToppCat But this person had a whole changing room! A giant cubicle if you like. What was wrong with using that?

[Ereshkigalangcleg]

I think I was clear. Everyone changes in a cubicle. It’s really not a problem. My point was that everyone deserves privacy when they are changing and this gives it.

It would be clear if you were talking about a completely different place with more cubicles, yes. But this this is a single sex area not a mixed one.

[CherryBlossomAutumn]

I see no reason to validate anyone.

I really don’t.

Don’t discriminate (such as in job interviews). Don’t abuse anyone, full stop. Allow someone to be whatever their ‘authentic self’ is, sure, of course, totally not my business really. Allow as in, don’t bully them or discriminate. Can’t think of a better word.

I’ve never had a gay (single sex attracted) person ask me to validate them in any way.

This is creeping into so many areas. Apparently I have to validate a lot of self identification otherwise that means I’m a bigot.

What the hell is going on?!

[ZuttZeVootEeeVo]

@VestofAbsurdity

As @Artichokeleaves says the third option could cover a whole variety of needs that are currently not being met, it's a positive solution. However, TRA's don't like this idea they want to be in with the women who don't want them there for reasons of power, control and validation.

I also think that a lot of men, regardless of gender identity, don't like the idea of a 'keep out' sign - spaces where women can go but they can't. In part, that's why sex segregated space are disappearing.

[VestofAbsurdity]

I also think that a lot of men, regardless of gender identity, don't like the idea of a 'keep out' sign - spaces where women can go but they can't. In part, that's why sex segregated space are disappearing.

Definitely. Most of the men screaming abuse at women who want single sex spaces are not trans at all.

Look at the number of times men have tried to have this forum shut down.

Look at the removal of words women use to describe themselves and the replacement with words that reduce women to descriptions of biological functions.

Some men cannot abide the thought that women should have anything for themselves, there is an element of utter hatred of women running through all this and then you have the unpalatable sight of other women helping them, cheering them on and kow-towing to them oblivious of the fact that the men hate them too and laugh at the fact they are using them as useful idiots in the destruction of women's and girls rights.

[PoolFloat]

Have you not heard of mixed changing areas? I have used several and people (men, women, children and trans) all use cubicles. There is never a problem and no-one is interested in the other pool users. Oh and the showers are mixed too. I don’t know what you think is going to happen to your mother. Trans women also need somewhere to change and privacy and are entitled to protection. I suggest forcing them to use men’s changing rooms wouldn’t necessarily be safe for them.

Have you heard of reading the OP's posts properly?

Anyway, for the people who are actually bothering to read my posts, my mum had a chat with her instructor today. He said he knew this would be an issue but the person had insisted and the club wasn't sure what to do about it. He's going to speak to the manager. He also said he agrees with her and wouldn't want this person getting changed in the same room as his wife and daughters. And neither would they.

My mum was so worried about bumping into them again this morning that she went into the men's changing room which the women use because the women's gets so crowded. 3 of the 4 men in the class get changed in the men's changing room near the squash courts which are empty at this time. As are the women's changing rooms near the squash courts. So there is somewhere for the person to change if they don't want to be in a room with other men. But they choose not to use it and instead use the most crowded women's changing room. The one with the most naked old women in it.

[Terfydactyl]

@Dreamwhisper

That's really interesting, I'm now reading an article about the first public female toilets in Britain.

It is amazing to see how much work it was.

But while I'm not dismissing your point at all, it's not quite what I meant. Even if we had to fight for them (ridiculous!), the purpose and designation of them is very black and white. Male. Female. What is the third place? It just feels like instead of it being male, female, neutral, in practice it would be more like male, female, also male but not explicit. I don't know if it would be any safer. But hopefully there are people who do and will know.

I was doing a bit of googling myself last night (before my big switcheroo on opinion) and I did find that the vast majority of people do think spaces like toilets should be single sex. So I wonder how a third space would be even broached to the public. It doesn't necessarily mean it's not the right solution, just that I see flaws in it. Sounds like there's flaws to all the solutions though to be honest.

Literally every single woman that comes across this and realises that transwomen in the womens is a bad idea comes up with third spaces.
I'm all for stonewall et al doing there level best to get funding, sort it all out and start creating these spaces.
However I am (many of us are) further along , and we already know that this won't work because it's not validating.
So personally I could care less how they are marketed, who will use them, because they will not happen.

And I'll be very very clear how this will go should third spaces actually happen. Only men will use them. Leading to yet another space for men. Oh initially women, carers, parents with slightly too old opposite sex children to use the parents space. Then over a short space of time, attacks will happen, creeps will use them hoping to find women alone, cameras will be planted, etc etc all the things that are now happening in women only spaces and all women will stop using them.
You can quote me on this in the event third spaces become a thing.

[ZuttZeVootEeeVo]

And I'll be very very clear how this will go should third spaces actually happen. Only men will use them. Leading to yet another space for men

I agree. And to make this 'third space' they'll have to reduce the space given to women and people with disabilities.

[CherryBlossomAutumn]

@Terfydactyl and OP, yes I feel a bit naive as I too thought third spaces were the answer. However just listening to the OP and her mother it is clear we are being bullied, all of us. OPs mother is now having to compromise her own feelings of dignity and undress somewhere else. A woman who at the ver least deserves some respect from us in society, to be able to go swimming without all of this stress.

OPs mum is in no way being any kind of phobic. She needs her social human rights and privacy respected. Because of the insistence of one man, there has been a cascade of others having to be put out.

This not a man who is, say disabled, and cannot access swimming without support. This is a man who can use the men’s changing rooms, but prefers not to. Prefers… There is absolute no need for him to do so.

Against the absolute needs of the OPs mother. Surely this is crystal clear?

[BoredofthisCrap7]

@Terfydactyl

Literally every single woman that comes across this and realises that transwomen in the womens is a bad idea comes up with third spaces.
I'm all for stonewall et al doing there level best to get funding, sort it all out and start creating these spaces.
However I am (many of us are) further along , and we already know that this won't work because it's not validating.
So personally I could care less how they are marketed, who will use them, because they will not happen.

And I'll be very very clear how this will go should third spaces actually happen. Only men will use them. Leading to yet another space for men. Oh initially women, carers, parents with slightly too old opposite sex children to use the parents space. Then over a short space of time, attacks will happen, creeps will use them hoping to find women alone, cameras will be planted, etc etc all the things that are now happening in women only spaces and all women will stop using them.
You can quote me on this in the event third spaces become a thing.

Absolutely Spot On Terfydactyl.

This is how it will play out.

And because TWAW, they are women completely, unquestionably, unarguably and totally, meaning that they want nothing less than 100% compliance in ALL AREAS OF LIFE.
That means that anything less than total acceptance is not enough.
That means that third spaces are not for them, because they are women.
That means no debate.
That means they use the ladies toilets because they ARE ladies. Why should they use a third space?

No TW who agrees with the new religion is voluntarily going to use a space that "others" them in any way.
They see it as their right. Third spaces will be more MEN's spaces.

[PoolFloat]

And you know what really makes me rage? As I said, my mum is a full time carer for my dying dad. She spends her days helping him to the loo, changing his stinking dressings, changing the incontinence pads on the bed, giving him his meds, bringing him drinks and cutting his food into small portions.

This is the one thing she does for her. It's also the only time she leaves the house because it's before my dad gets up in the morning. Otherwise she is as housebound as my dad is.

And this fucking arsehole is ruining that for her.

And why? Because he thinks his need for validation is more important than my mum and all the other old ladies. The irony is that most of them have - like my mum - spent their lives running about after men. Their lives have been largely focused on making men happy. But they aren't allowed this one thing.

We really are just support humans.

[PoolFloat]

Be kind? Where is the kindness to my mum and the other older women? Where is the respect?

Nowhere.

[VestofAbsurdity]

@PoolFloat

Be kind? Where is the kindness to my mum and the other older women? Where is the respect?

Nowhere.

There isn't any for any women or girls @PoolFloat the entire TRA agenda is riven with hatred and misogyny.

[DarkDayforMN]

I hope your mum knows there is a thread full of women on Mumsnet rooting for her. If she would like to know that, of course!

Raging along with you, OP. I hope it gets resolved in a way that is okay for your mum. If management won't sort it could all the women go collectively to the men's changing rooms near the squash court? He would probably eventually follow them there too but at least at that stage it would be evidence that he's not a nice harmless transwoman but actively trying to make women uncomfortable.

[Artichokeleaves]

@ZuttZeVootEeeVo

And I'll be very very clear how this will go should third spaces actually happen. Only men will use them. Leading to yet another space for men

I agree. And to make this 'third space' they'll have to reduce the space given to women and people with disabilities.

Yup. As we know and have seen played out over the past few years male entitlement knows no bounds and there will be those who exploit those spaces and anyone in them until females withdraw into the female only space .

However I think this is probably something we need to go through to demonstrate females aren't paranoid/hysterical/other disparaging dismissive terms, and that they just have basic pattern recognition.

And it will also demonstrate beyond doubt that there are males who will not respect female needs, inclusion or access or anything else about females that gets in the way of their doing exactly what they wish at all times and using females as resources as they feel so entitled. And will successfully therefore fuck this up entirely for all males.

The end of this for females is cast iron gates and boundaries around female spaces, resources, access and equality, and you'll be able to hear the tantrums from space. But the evidence will be there. In the same way it has now stacked up sufficiently high for the beginnings of the push back we are seeing.

Female access will never be tolerated by some males unless it is compelled by law with consequences for breaching it .

Frankly demonstrating why females need single spaces anyway and no, we're not at some lovely rainbowy glittery time where everyone will just treat everyone else with love and respect. Two minutes on twitter reading the death and rape threats ought to clear up anyone still clinging on to that hope.

[Dreamwhisper]

@Terfydactyl

Literally every single woman that comes across this and realises that transwomen in the womens is a bad idea comes up with third spaces.
I'm all for stonewall et al doing there level best to get funding, sort it all out and start creating these spaces.
However I am (many of us are) further along , and we already know that this won't work because it's not validating.
So personally I could care less how they are marketed, who will use them, because they will not happen.

And I'll be very very clear how this will go should third spaces actually happen. Only men will use them. Leading to yet another space for men. Oh initially women, carers, parents with slightly too old opposite sex children to use the parents space. Then over a short space of time, attacks will happen, creeps will use them hoping to find women alone, cameras will be planted, etc etc all the things that are now happening in women only spaces and all women will stop using them.
You can quote me on this in the event third spaces become a thing.

Exactly what my concern was

Unisex as in single occupancy, not mix sex shared, facilities seem the best way forward to me.

[PoolFloat]

@DarkDayforMN

I hope your mum knows there is a thread full of women on Mumsnet rooting for her. If she would like to know that, of course!

Raging along with you, OP. I hope it gets resolved in a way that is okay for your mum. If management won't sort it could all the women go collectively to the men's changing rooms near the squash court? He would probably eventually follow them there too but at least at that stage it would be evidence that he's not a nice harmless transwoman but actively trying to make women uncomfortable.

Thank you @DarkDayforMN. I haven't actually told her. Maybe I should! I might copy and paste all the nice messages into a doc for her. She spoke to another woman today who said that she was very unhappy but that she was too scared to make a fuss. And that they would just have to take turns waiting for the cubicles from now on.

Yesterday, my mum was telling me that they wouldn't even wrap themselves in a towel when they came out of the shower. They were drying themselves and chatting and getting dressed. Just completely at ease with their old saggy wrinkly bodies scarred by childbirth and hysterectomies, just celebrating the fact that they were still alive and able to move. My mum has been going to these classes for 18 years.

And this fucking arsehole has ruined all that overnight.

[Rathgar]

creepy