Transwoman in the changing room at school pool

[PoolFloat]

My mum goes to aqua aerobics classes at a sports club in a private school. Recently, a transwoman has joined the class. My mum was told that they use a different changing room to the one next to the pool but today they came out of the pool and put their swimming hat into a locker before returning to the pool to join the class (there is adult free swim beforehand).

The club has a safeguarding policy which states they will: prioritise the safety and well-being of children and adults at risk

I'm not sure if my mum is considered at risk? She is 88 and nearly all the women in the class are in their 70s and 80s.

The changing room has a communal area with only four cubicles so most women get changed in the communal area. Now they are reluctant to do so.

My mum has asked me to help her draft a letter from the women in the class saying how uncomfortable they are that this person is in their changing room but doesn't know how to word it.

Can anyone help please?

Where does it say penises are on show? All this person did was put something in a locker. OP, was a penis on show?!

hang on

you think a bunch of 40 year old women who attend an aqua aerobics session might beat up a man?

your fantasy world is scary

It is the be kind, they weren't doing anything wrong etc that is the opening up of women's spaces to men. The thin end of the wedge until the wrong thing does happen, the advantage is taken, a woman is traumatized or worse. So, we stop it right at the start so the bad can never happen. We keep a clear, monitored division between the sexes in such places.

The thing you people saying this kind of stuff need to get your head around is that it is NOT a 100% consensus that all women feel the need to exclude trans women from single sex spaces all of the time, in every scenario.

It's a majority view of women that they mostly don't want people with a penis in women's single sex spaces.

But All you said was they shoved a cap in a locker. So you are confirming they are getting changed in there now?

They walked through a room of semi dressed elderly women.

This.

yes, this is all fine

you are perfectly at liberty to be happy with men in women's changing rooms

but my No over rides your yes. you cannot consent for me. my no means any man in women's changing rooms is pushing women's boundaries, which is a massive red flag.

and if someone is going to adopt a fundamentally incorrect position, namely that they have changed sex, they are going to find that quite incompatible with maintaining their personal dignity. this is not my problem

Unfortunately in some of the places I have lived I can absolutely see that. I think you must live in a bubble if you think people aren't scumbags.

Yes Lollypip, hate crime is a huge problem. Perpetrated by men against women.

Except we don't get special consideration.

If the problem is that a male may fear assault in the male changing room then why is the answer to make females fear assault in the female changing room?

you may chose to reductively frame that as a simple "oh a man's needs are more important than mine are they??"

But that is what it means. Be honest.

mmm, yes indeed, the aqua aerobics posse can be quite scary

(you are being very silly now)

Agree and just to add, they are sharing beds with GAY men which is a sex-based sexual preference and so the private parts of the women they’re sharing a bed with are likely to fill them with revulsion (I have a lot of gay friends and have shared beds on occasion). Plus this is a choice.

It’s different to someone terming themselves a “lesbian” when they still have a penis and/or then entering women’s sex-protected spaces and making old ladies (or any female using the space) who are undressed/undressing feel vulnerable and uncomfortable.

Aurora231 wrote - "As far as I can tell she (I don’t believe you can change biological sex but I am happy to use somebody’s preferred pronouns) ..."

When did this person tell you the preferred pronoun is "she"?

Unfortunately in some of the places I have lived I can absolutely see that. I think you must live in a bubble if you think people aren't scumbags

Oh no, I think there are plenty of them in the world. You should look at male sex and violent crime figures in comparison to female ones.

@Lollypip "hate crime is a massive problem in most of the UK"

There is no such thing as a "hate crime" in the UK. There is crime that has to have been committed and so-called 'hate' has to be proved to be a significant motivating factor for any sentence for that crime to be enhanced by proof of the 'hate' element.

You may be confusing what you call "hate crime" with the recording and reporting of "Non-Crime Hate Incidents" by the police which has been deemed to be unlawful by the High Court. (See Harry Miller Appeal case against the College of Policing.)

Still waiting for the letter draft...

I'm distracted by all this talk of needing to have a penis on show before we're allowed to feel uncomfortable about unwanted males in single sex spaces.

Did I understand right that transwomen don't want to use the men's because men are too violent and now they join the old ladies because younger women are too violent?

Does it matter why this male person wanted to use a female single sex facility? Does a nice sounding reason give them the right to use that space? Is that what it is boiling down to? How nice the male individual's reasoning sounds?

Dear Sir or Madam,

My 70 year old mother attends a swimming class and has informed me a trans woman used the female changing rooms to put her hat in a locker.

My mother was not comfortable with this as she would prefer if the female changing rooms were single sex spaces only.

Are you able to comment as to whether you would be willing to enforce a policy of your changing rooms being single sex only? I understand that it is possible to do this lawfully however I also understand that your policy may be to allow trans gendered people to use the changing room of their chosen gender rather than their biological sex.

Could you please clarify this matter for me, and if your current policy states that you do not require your changing rooms to be single sex, can you advise if there are any single occupancy facilities that my mother could use when swimming at your club?

I appreciate your help in this sensitive matter.

Yours sincerely,

Blister

That is exactly what I would write if I were in your position. It really doesn't need to be a full blown attack on anyone, you don't need to go into a transphobic rant (where you will justifiably get accused of, erm, transphobia).

Women's safety, privacy, dignity and comfort is a legitimate purpose as you well know @MishyJDI and that is not a high bar and it absolutely does qualify under the Equality Act, as confirmed by the EHRC - you know the actual Equality Act not the one misrepresented by Stonewall.

No-one is removing trans people they use the spaces and services for their sex or alternate spaces provided exclusively for them as in this case.

Does her being trans make her more of a threat than any other women? Would a lesbian, for example, be treated with the same assumptions?

You win the award for the most tenuous analogy. Lesbians don’t have penises 🙄

I've provided you a nice little draft, it took me 2 minutes.

You should have known that no one would actually help you write such a thing on this board, it's for berating trans access to anywhere.

OP said they left the pool and walked through a changing room of semi naked women, and were clearly male bodied.

If someone leaves the pool, they are in swim wear. The thing about penises is, you can SEE the shape of them through the thin material of whatever swim suit. Enough to know it's a biological man as OP's mum discovered.

Would you be comfortable getting undressed in front of a strange man? If you would then why is it assumed to be more comfortable just because the man says he's a woman.....Surely the entry requirement for a single sex space is being part of that sex?

All the ladies need to boycott the swimming group and let them know the reason why. A person in the changing rooms that has gone through male puberty should not be anywhere near the female changing rooms.

And this isn't tenuous??

Jesus Christ.