Transwoman in the changing room at school pool

[PoolFloat]

My mum goes to aqua aerobics classes at a sports club in a private school. Recently, a transwoman has joined the class. My mum was told that they use a different changing room to the one next to the pool but today they came out of the pool and put their swimming hat into a locker before returning to the pool to join the class (there is adult free swim beforehand).

The club has a safeguarding policy which states they will: prioritise the safety and well-being of children and adults at risk

I'm not sure if my mum is considered at risk? She is 88 and nearly all the women in the class are in their 70s and 80s.

The changing room has a communal area with only four cubicles so most women get changed in the communal area. Now they are reluctant to do so.

My mum has asked me to help her draft a letter from the women in the class saying how uncomfortable they are that this person is in their changing room but doesn't know how to word it.

Can anyone help please?

@PoolFloat letter drafted!

Thank you for tagging the correct OP.

And sorry I got your mum's age wrong, I misread

And this isn't tenuous??

Women didn't consent to a male seeing them unclothed. They didn't know males could access the female changing.

A lesbian is an XX adult human female.
A male masquerading as a “woman” is patently not a woman and probably is packing male genitalia.
Women and girls need protection from men in their spaces.

All locations who allow males into their female single sex spaces should at the very least be mandated to make this clear, so that women and girls can make an informed choice whether to put themselves in a position where their boundaries are ignored.

This person is male if they have a penis.

This person is male full stop.

97% wasn't it in the most recent YouGov survey?

I think that draft letter misses out one very important part of the op:
'My mum was told that they use a different changing room to the one next to the pool'
So I would add:
'You had previously informed my mother that transwomen use a different changing room. Please could you confirm that this is the case and, if yes, reiterate to all concerned that this is your rule?'

I would also miss out the bit about it being a sensitive matter. I think it's a perfectly straightfoward matter and it sounds like the pool already have a workable solution.

@Dreamwhisper See the Sexual Offences Act 2003, section 67 Voyeurism

(1) A person commits an offence if—

(a) for the purpose of obtaining sexual gratification, he observes another person doing a private act, and

(b) he knows that the other person does not consent to being observed for his sexual gratification.

Section 67 Voyeurism

Why else would any man want to be in any woman's private space if the motivation is not sexual gratification?

You tell me?

As I said earlier, any male (man) who violates the boundaries of any female (woman) against her consent is, by definition, a predatory male (man).

How can you possibly accuse someone walking to put their hat in a locker of "the sexual offence of voyeurism". It is beyond tenuous and you would and should be laughed out of the door if you actually tried to accuse anybody, trans or not, of a literal sexual offence for walking across a changing room. I'm not asking whether you think it's possible they were acting in a voyeuristic way, as anything is possible, I'm saying you have absolutely no evidence this was the case. It's your own prejudice against transwomen which is causing you to automatically assume the must have got some kind of sexual pleasure from being there. There is no argument against that.

If that person was acting strangely, or leery, or sexual in any way I'm sure OP would have been the first to mention this.

What's the point in talking about anything if people can't be reasonable and factual and treat people like actual people rather than fetishist perverts whose sole purpose in life is to abuse and harass as many women as possible just by existing.

Right...

I think you'll find one of the first responses which sends the op to sex matters.org leads op to almost the exact same type of letters...

I just wanted for once someone who keeps leading us down the "show us the penis first route" to draft one too because when we do it "it's against the trans".

Now she has almost the same letter with the same " transphobic content" written by a trans ally. So she can't go too far wrong.

I think you'll find the bigoted prosecco storm front is pretty level headed.

And may I remind you, no one has berated the transwoman from taking part in sport with some old ladies. No one cares. We do care about female single sex spaces.

I can't remember, I don't think it was quite that high, but there wasn't much support.

to be fair, @SolasAnla provided some pretty good advice quite early on

and then people arrived accusing everyone of disgusting bigotry and the temperature went up a bit (not saying that was you)

I'm sorry but again, see my most recent post before this one.

Is that a real question - "Why else would any man want to be in any woman's private space if the motivation is not sexual gratification?"

This is offensive beyond belief. But it does exactly prove my point which I was worried you've argue against - that your statement is based solely on your own prejudice in assuming ANY motivation trans women have to do ANYTHING is sexual.

Most people are not transphobic so know that this is not the case.

One class was aqua aerobics, the previous session was free swim which means they probably use the pool for various different classes. But, by your logic a trans person who attends aqua aerobics is a given pussycat and would never attack anyone? Lol

Ah fair enough, I didn't see that

Maybe the person feels more safe in a group of ladies in their 70s and feels THEY will not be attacked?!

Ah, there we go the male person's wants prioritised over the female person, misogyny on crack again.

His feelings regarding safety are not the concern of the women, any women, the concern for the women is their own privacy, dignity and safety and that is perfectly reasonable, women are not support humans nor are they human shields.

How can you possibly accuse someone walking to put their hat in a locker of "the sexual offence of voyeurism".

Walking through a room of half naked women against their consent. The fucking hat is not the issue here. My point is that it is experienced by the woman whose boundaries are violated by a male seeing them semi-naked in the exact same way, not that they could report to the police as a crime (who would do fuck all anyway).

I'm and would hope my letter would be similar to anyone else's in this situation regardless of belief.

No one is saying you don't have a right to enquire about or request this stuff, of course there are times where it isn't appropriate.

I would not be surprised though if the club comes back and says they stand by their current use of the changing rooms. I'm sure they will most likely be helpful and accommodating to the OP though.

This is just emotive language though. It still doesn't change the fact that you have no evidence that this was the case.

I can think of another reason a trans woman would want to be in a female changing room. Because they identify as female so don't want to use the male changing rooms

If my understanding of the op is correct, the pool has already done the sensible thing and provided separate changing facilities for trans women, in which case all they have to do is make sure their rules are understood by all concerned and enforced.

Assuming this hasn't been said yet (because I don't have time to read the whole thread), I would start by reminding the class organisers that they promised this wouldn't happen. If the transwoman has any empathy they'll understand, and most do, so there's not likely to be a drama. Likely, they'd changed elsewhere as requested but there's no locker and it hadn't occurred to them.

But, whatever the hypothetical debate about rights or wrongs, an elderly lady is concerned about how vulnerable she is whilst changing in an open space and that's not something that should be ignored. She is likely not alone in the class, because these women have a lifetime of knowing how vulnerable women generally are, particularly when naked and changing, and will also be aware that their age increases the risk. It's not at all unreasonable that they are unsettled by a male half their age walking into the room whilst they are changing, and no-one with any empathy would say they were.

The best place to start is to raise this, nicely, and highlight this concern, remind the group about their statement, and ask them to have a quiet word. If they push back, remind them that, legally, its a single sex space - not single gender - if there are separate changing rooms at all, so they may be breaking the law, and that what is likely to happen if it isn't resolved is that the elderly ladies will put their need to be safe and feel safe first and will just stop going. Sadly, you may find money talks.

@Dreamwhisper

Out of curiosity how would you want voyeurism for sexual gratification proven in a changing room setting? And I ask as someone who doesn't believe a trans woman in a changing room is a voyeur or a creep.

If for example the TW had an erection while walking through the changing room, would that be proof of sexual gratification/voyeurism? That's what happened with that US trans woman swimmer who walked around the changing room with an erection because he still fancied women (a lot of TW are straight men turned TW lesbians). Made her team mates very uncomfortable. Would you be comfortable seeing an erection in a changing room even if the person said they were TW or would you consider the option they were a voyeuristic creep?