Transwoman in the changing room at school pool

[PoolFloat]

My mum goes to aqua aerobics classes at a sports club in a private school. Recently, a transwoman has joined the class. My mum was told that they use a different changing room to the one next to the pool but today they came out of the pool and put their swimming hat into a locker before returning to the pool to join the class (there is adult free swim beforehand).

The club has a safeguarding policy which states they will: prioritise the safety and well-being of children and adults at risk

I'm not sure if my mum is considered at risk? She is 88 and nearly all the women in the class are in their 70s and 80s.

The changing room has a communal area with only four cubicles so most women get changed in the communal area. Now they are reluctant to do so.

My mum has asked me to help her draft a letter from the women in the class saying how uncomfortable they are that this person is in their changing room but doesn't know how to word it.

Can anyone help please?

Have we seriously just had a suggestion that, because some women choose to share their bed with a man they know and trust, we have no right to ask men to stay out of women's changing rooms?

I think that even beats the 'do you have a single sex toilet at home?' argument.

where it is for a legitimate purpose. This is a high bar. Feeling a little discomfort with someone as they are different is unlikey to qualify under the EA2010.

End of.

Stonewall Law. And you know it's not about being "different" it's about being male in a female space.

I can believe people tolerate this! It makes me so angry that little girls in changing rooms have to encounter grown blokes in the changing room! 🤬

There's another thread where an elderly woman did not raise her concern the right way.

Now here is another elderly woman asking how to raise her concern.

Please could all those who know what not to say, explain how to state that women are uncomfortable in this situation? What are the right words? The right protocol?

So a letter to the manager stating male crossing the female changing rooms makes females uncomfortable? Or is this still wrong.

It's OK to say transwomen are uncomfortable with other males but not ok to say women are uncomfortable to share their space?

So how do we express concern? Or are we not allowed?

It's the forever circular argument though isn't it. This board whenever anyone makes any assertions that it's in some cases justified to allow trans women into places designated for women is just to froth at the mouth and say "we're as women expected to BE KIND?"

Well no, it's not about asking you to be kind, it's about offering dignity to people even when you personally might not agree with it. And this is reflected in literature about such issues - that organisations can discern between women and transwomen when there's a legit reason, but they don't have to in every circumstance.

are womens’ safety, privacy or dignity illegitimate purposes by your reckoning?

I find them legitimate, personally. But feel free to disagree.

preserving women's privacy and dignity is not a legitimate purpose for you? how extremely revealing

@MishyJDI "This is a high bar".

What rubbish! There is no "high bar".

Perhaps read subsection 6 of Schedule 3, section 27 of the Equality Act 2010?

"(6)The condition is that—
(a)the service is provided for, or is likely to be used by, two or more persons at the same time, and
(b)the circumstances are such that a person of one sex might reasonably object to the presence of a person of the opposite sex."

Any space where women (female sex class]) have consented to share with other women has the expectation that it will not be violated by any males of any description.

This includes public toilets, changing rooms, hospital wards and more.

Remember that sex is defined in the Equality Act as woman (female) or man (male). The definition of sex in this law applies to the single sex exceptions: spaces exclusively for females and spaces exclusively for males.

Remember also that neither 'gender reassignment' nor having a 'GRC' means anyone's sex has changed in relation to the Equality Act 2010.

Eh? You seem to be saying that the EA doesn't allow for males to be excluded from women's changing rooms.

You literally are allowed to say you are uncomfortable that trans women are in the space that you use.

But the organisation do not have to honour or act on your complaint. It is possible that they can though. So if you really feel so strongly then you can complain, and then they can decide and use guidance as to whether it's appropriate or not to change their policy.

It's pretty transparent.

Maybe the person feels more safe in a group of ladies in their 70s and feels THEY will not be attacked?!

Women aren't human shields for males. We aren't put on the earth to make life easier or more comfortable for male people.

It's a tricky situation. I am in almost all cases completely supportive of trans men and women. However, I think I would feel a tad uncomfortable in this situation.
They do deserve a space where they can go to get a locker or get changed, but on the other hand sexual violence is a hugely common scenario. Women should not always have to be the ones to make sure everyone's feelings are pandered to before their own.
Maybe they could have a third set of changing rooms? I don't know if that's actually possible and it could be a silly suggestion. I'm just thinking out loud. Because if I were a trans man who still had a womens anatomy, I wouldn't feel comfortable in the mens changing room. But then where would I go?

Well if this person has a penis they are definitely not a woman are they?

But what if offering 'dignity' to someone in the precise manner they demand (a male demanding access to women's communal changing rooms for example) makes me feel undignified?

why is that man's need for dignity more important than mine?

Sorry OP, missed the part about there being another place for them to get changed/lock stuff away. Ignore that part of my post 😂

Fabulous! Now please help draft the letter! Because I don't want this poor lady asking the wrong questions when all she wants is to voice her concern!

So what should she write that will help the organising understand why she's worried?

Eh? You seem to be saying that the EA doesn't allow for males to be excluded from women's changing rooms.

Judging by their performance in other threads, this poster isn't very knowledgeable about law, so I'd take it with a pinch of salt. It does allow for this, however guidelines were written in consultation with TRAs so they give the impression that only in extreme circumstances can any male be asked to leave a female space. Hopefully better, clearer guidance will eventually be drafted.

Yes. I've seen people try to use the argument that a man could take a young daughter into the male changing room and she could see things in there but that's a completely different situation. That's a small child and she has her father there for protection, it's not a man in the female facilities who is a risk to women and girls.

@Lollypip "Can you show me evidence of reports of sexual crime against women from transgender individuals in changing rooms?"

This is not about sexual crimes. It is about not violating women's boundaries against their consent. It is about respect by males for the sex class that is female. It is about respect by males for the privacy and the human dignity of the sex class that is female.

Any male violating the boundaries of females against their consent is, by definition, a predatory male.

Oh come on, you knew what I meant. A lady in her 80s isn't going to beat someone up for identifying as a female. A bunch of 40 year olds, absolutely might. Maybe you live in an area where people are dignified but hate crime is a massive problem in most of the UK.

Your bigotry is disgusting

oy

why the fightiness @Lollypip ?

you're now going to get very upset when people react to your aggressive statement by getting aggressive in turn, then tell us this board is an echo chamber, then leave

it could be avoided I suggest by dialing down the hyperbole slightly and remembering that you are speaking to real people

(now tell me that trans people are real people too)

I refer you to my answer, lollypip, I think it covers it. Women are not support humans.

When the fuck is all of this 'be kind' bullshit going to stop? Because that's basically what it boils down to. Be kind and ignore your instincts like a good little woman. It doesn't matter that you've had a lifetime of experience and know exactly the threat that men pose to you, you just need to shut up and put your own feelings and your own safety behind the feelings/validation of any random male who demands it. Why do the feelings of one man matter more than the feelings of every woman in the room? Are men worth more than women? Does a man who may have had some bad experiences deserve more consideration than a woman (or many women) in the same position?

Why not focus on telling men, en masse, from birth, over and over, to 'be kind' to women so that we no longer need to fear being raped and assaulted and don't need to be kept safe from them?

I'm frankly getting a little bit sick of being told to that I need to be kind. Even the word makes me feel sick now. Protecting yourself from a person who belongs to the group which poses a risk to you is basic common sense. Something apparently lacking in many these days.

If all women need to do is stop being so judgmental and assuming that a male in the female changing rooms is a threat to them, why can't the male just do the same for all of the other males in the male changing room?

It's not about who's "right to dignity" is more important - if you exclude all trans people from all single sex spaces then you are by default stripping them of a lot of personal dignity by constantly placing them in situations in their every day life where they have really difficult decisions to face.

The thing you people saying this kind of stuff need to get your head around is that it is NOT a 100% consensus that all women feel the need to exclude trans women from single sex spaces all of the time, in every scenario.

It may be what's right to you, and you may chose to reductively frame that as a simple "oh a man's needs are more important than mine are they??" but these kinds of decisions effect ALL trans people, including trans men, and they do not serve trans people at all.

I feel like the laws that we have now are pretty good and fair already. We have the provision to provide single sex spaces where necessary and justifiable. We have the legal provision to also include trans people where this is deemed appropriate. Literally anything above that (either way) is stripping away someone's more fundamental rights.