Allison Bailey v Stonewall - Employment Tribunal hearing Thread 6

[ickky]

The Tribunal started on 25th April at 10am. If you would like to view online you need to send a request for access as early as possible.

Send an email to

[email protected]

The subject heading of the email request should read

“MEDIA OR PUBLIC ACCESS REQUEST – Case number 2202172/2020 - Ms A Bailey – 25th April 2022.

Then ask for the pin for the online access.

You will be contacted with instructions on how to observe the hearing.

When joining the live tribunal please choose a non inflammatory/offensive name, everyone can see it in the chat - This is a court room, please behave accordingly.

The court chat function is there for official court purposes, not for observers, please don't use it unless you have a technical issue.

On the first page underneath where you put your screen name, select the video and mic that are not crossed out (top option), this is the courts vid and mic.
On the next page select NONE on the drop down windows for vid and mic, these are your own video and mic.

You must be muted so as to not disturb the hearing.

There is also live tweeting from

twitter.com/tribunaltweets
Abbreviations:

AB: Allison Bailey, claimant
BC: Ben Cooper QC, barrister for AB
SW = Stonewall Equality Limited (respondent 1)
IO = Ijeoma Omambala QC, senior counsel - barrister for SW
RW = Robin White junior counsel to SW - assisting IO
GC = Garden Court Chambers Limited (respondent 2) (GCC would be a better abbreviation)
AH = Andrew Hochhauser QC, senior counsel - barrister for GC
JR = Jane Russell junior counsel to GC - assisting AH
RM= Rajiv Menon QC & SH = Stephanie Harrison QC (jointly respondent 3 along with all members of GC except AB)
EJ = Employment Judge Goodman hearing the case
Panel = any one of the three panel members (EJ and two lay members)

Thread 1 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4529887-Allison-Bailey-v-Stonewall-Employment-Tribunal-hearing?

Thread 2 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4542466-allison-bailey-v-stonewall-employment-tribunal-hearing-thread-2

Thread 3 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4545725-allison-bailey-v-stonewall-employment-tribunal-hearing-thread-3

Thread 4 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4546945-allison-bailey-v-stonewall-employment-tribunal-hearing-thread-4

Thread 5 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4548160-allison-bailey-v-stonewall-employment-tribunal-hearing-thread-5

She sure is, nauticant.

How anyone could possibly defend it just blows my mind.

This is jaw dropping.

Very sullen in responses

MS - what's the difference between individual rapes and rape culture.

As an aside I thought Cotton Ceiling referred to Lesbian's gussets that transwomen had to get through. Is that not right?

BC explaining the meaning of rape culture to MS. MS appears to be claiming a narrower interpretation. The places that gender identity ideology takes people who feel they ought to adhere to it.

Christ, MS is really pissed off with BC's Questioning.

"Your questions are too hard to understand sometimes, don't patronise me.!"

She's getting really tetchy.

Yes icky that's right.

MS - what's the difference between individual rapes and rape culture.

It's unbelievable that someone as bright as her doesn't know the difference.

I'd say Manderleyagain and ickky that there's something in the air that if you enable a transwoman to be effective in overcoming the Cotton Ceiling, the result is that they are able to explain nicely to a lesbian that they are in fact a woman, and furthermore are a lesbian, and the lesbian will cheerfully set aside the cotton obstacle without there being any coercion whatsoever.

Repeating already posted sentiments, but just fucking fuming that anyone anywhere, much less in a court of law, would try to say that strategizing to overcome women's sexual boundaries is not coercion. What is wrong with these people?

Is this more faux naivety, or is she really so ignorant of these matters? What's the impression of those watching it live?

She knows full well what it bloody means...admitting she knows the difference paints her into a corner.

I would suggest MS knows exactly what "rape culture" means.

From her bio:
"Maya has established her career across both public and private law claims with a commitment to providing a voice to the marginalised. She started her working life as an advocate and campaigner for women and girls fleeing domestic violence, sexual abuse, forced marriages and other exploitation in the NGO sector."

www.doughtystreet.co.uk/barristers/maya-sikand-qc

Yes that's right but I saw something that said they've now changed it to refer to the pants of the TW and something about the cotton restraining a penis and needing to set it free. I dunno how I can say anything of this within talk guidelines 🤷🏻

It sounds like allison sent her some links about what 'rape culture' means to explain her tweet. But she still doesn't know what it means so I guess she never read them. Is that right?

They just couldn't be arsed to investigate properly even though it was someone's career and professional reputation.

This is where the tactics of twitter pile ons and emails to the emotes are successful. It puts the pressure on. The employer doesn't step back calmly and look into it. They panic and try and do something quickly.

Alert to ickky!

We're about to reach the end of thread 6!

MS is very proud of her pedantry & its certainly very evident in her testimony. Not sure its an asset to her & GCC's defence.

It's really not helping that it's called the 'cotton ceiling' is it? I suppose we should be grateful that TRAs are so entitled and unaware of the obvious rape connotations of that phrase.

I don't know who writes the urban dictionary, but they say:

"A term used by some trans MtF people to present lesbians' lack of attraction to them as prejudice. Often, it is used to shame them into relationships, completely ignoring the fact that lesbians are same-sex attracted.
This same concept, except involving transmen and gay men, is referred to as the boxer ceiling."

Is anyone else finding MS's answers really confusing? I'm finding it really hard to understand what her actual answers are.

www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4551757-allison-bailey-v-stonewall-employment-tribunal-hearing-thread-7

Yet again superb service from the captain of our threads.

BC's not having any of it, Gabcsika.

Oh she knows. That's why she's so annoyed.