Single sex toilets and muslim women

[peonyred]

Since I am constantly being met with the "be kind" bollox and clearly am not perceived as being "kind", I have started asking people (mostly men and young people) how they feel about the fact that allowing men into women's loos means Muslim women and orthodox Jewish women cannot use them - at all. Therefore they have no access to any public toilets. TW can use unisex, mens or women's but their insistence on their rights to women's loos has shut out a significant number of women. This is without mentioning sexual abuse survivors (which appears not to register) First - am I right about this? Second, is there a Muslim woman out there who (with our backing) takes this to court? Is this the way though or am I kidding myself we'll ever get our spaces back?

But they aren’t. Trans women are men.

If trans women were women, they would be called women. 🤷🏼‍♀️

Transwomen are men and of the transwomen in prison approx. 70% are in there for sexual assault whereas only 17% of men who do NOT identify as trans are in there for sexual assault. Hence a transwoman is MORE likely to commit sexual assault than other men. It would also follow that they are also more likely to behave in a manner that is inappropriate.
(No, I am not going to find the links to this statistic again. You have google on your machines too and the statistic is official governmental statistics from Britain and everyone can see it. I think it was 2019 numbers.)

There are other countries you could use as an example here, please use them and not Iran. Please don't use Iran as an example here. Iran's state and religious arms notoriously force and pressure gender transition on people who express Lesbian or Gay feelings. The abusive use of transitional doctrin and surgery to push same sex couples to capitulate to one of them transitioning to fit a heteronormative view of society and religion is well documented.

To say Iran has a big transgender population is to totally miss how many of these 'transitions' were socially, familial and even state pressured to prevent a gay person being prosecuted for being gay. A crime with dire consequences in law and upon families standing. To say Iran is supportive of trans communities is to ignore the motivation for this support, which is to eradicate Lesbian and gay people.

No they aren't. A few may pass as women on the surface but they are not women. Not XX chromosomes, no womb, natural vagina, ovaries, can not give birth to children. Nothing naturally female about them. Grew up male not female. Being a woman is a lifetime journey and experience from birth to death- not a case of saying you're a woman. They will never be part of our culture as women.

Much sympathy. I did say on page one we'd get the statement that 'this doesn't happen'.

(and if it does, it isn't that bad. And if it is that bad, then you deserve it, yada yada)

I've been repeatedly told on here to get over my homosexuality on the grounds that it's very wrong and racist or something of me to have a sexuality that makes male people feel thwarted in their access to my body and that I have a social duty to provide sex even if I don't want it or enjoy it.

My not enjoying it would be my fault for not trying hard enough you see.

Horrible to experience, isn't it? MRA in the extreme. Women are experiencing this stuff we talk about here, and it's awful. If you are a woman and haven't yet, aren't you're lucky? Give it time. You or a woman you care about will sooner or later. But that means a lot of women stacking up as collateral damage while we wait for enough women to be personally affected.

Do you think they might be annoyed because you are so obviously contemptuous of their views?

I guess when they do finally give up on your friendship you will have this little corner of mumsnet to stop you from being lonely.

Unisex spaces as an addition would only be a good thing. Provided they are completely self contained. Some trans women aren’t going to want to go into an enclosed space with men either.

In fact all cubicles being totally wall to floor would be a vast improvement. It’s so much more civilised.

Unisex spaces as an addition would only be a good thing. Provided they are completely self contained.

Doubt you will get disagreement here.

However, about that idea that has been floated by Petrichor that there needs to be some ‘policing’ of the female toilets because some males will not respect women asking them to use the gender neutral facilities and to not disrespect females by using the female single sex toilets… do you think some males will continue to show disrespect to the many female voices who stating their needs for single sex toilets fieldof ?

I don’t really know what you’re trying to say.
I’m saying that trans women have every right to use a women’s toilet. How would you propose to stop them? It’s not about ‘refusing to respect female only spaces’…it’s them using a space they are 100% valid in using.

trans or just a more square built female

'square built'.

Because the only difference between Alex Drummond and virtually any woman is a little extra squareness in Alex' shoulders.

trans women have every right to use a women’s toilet. How would you propose to stop them? It’s not about ‘refusing to respect female only spaces’…it’s them using a space they are 100% valid in using

At least you're saying it out loud.

'Males will do what they want, you can't stop them'.

I’m saying that trans women have every right to use a women’s toilet.

And organisations could legitimately exclude them from female single sex toilets. Particularly if a set of well designed gender neutral toilets was also provided.

So, you can ‘say’ all you want really.

And why would they need policing again? Just refresh our memories, if transitioned males are respecting the rights of females to have single sex spaces, why do you suggest they would be so disrespectful as to continue to use female toilets if they realize it is causing distress and an organisation has specifically stated the toilets are single sex?

Are you really saying that transitioned males would not respect that organisation’s decision and the needs of females? Is that what you are saying- that those toilets would need ‘policing’?

Deleted?
For what?
Saying what every other person (almost) on this thread said?
Trans women are MEN.
There.
I said it again.
That is what I said in my post. Also, that I don't have to share their belief that they are women.
Therefore it is a feeling in their head that I don't share.

Will I be deleted again for saying that?
Why are some posts acceptable and some not?
What is the magic formula for getting a post to stand?
I wish I knew, because it seems completely arbitrary.

""it’s them using a space they are 100% valid in using.""

How are men valid using a women's space? What makes them "women"? I'd love you to answer that.
And not referring to their legal right to do so, but what actually MAKES them women?

@ BackAgain777

I agree

Excellent answer by @Artichokeleaves

You’re missing the point. Lots of things are ineffectively ‘policed’ - look at traffic speed limits! The point is that if the law is correct then when it’s broken people can if they need to seek help.

So if toilets are single sex, then when there’s an obvious man in there causing a problem, women and girls can seek help and he can be asked to leave / arrested for harassment. May not always be possible but certainly in eg schools nightclubs and pubs etc.

Similarly if announcing that he’s trans gives a man a right of access to female facilities, you get male sex offenders hanging around female spaces looking for their next victim. Like that ‘trans’ boy who raped a female teenager in the school loo in America. Would he have so easily have got a victim alone if he hadn’t been given access by the school authorities to the female toilets? I suspect not.

Transwomen are not women.
I can't speak for the Jewish faith but Islam has not accepted transgenderism at all.

what an awful thing to say.

you would be better of writing transpeople have a mental illness called body dysmorphia whereby they think they are born in the wrong body. Nothing society can do will remove that issue that biology they are of the sex that does match their gender.

They are trans. Mental illness.

islam doesn’t care about the western world and all the non believers. Don’t bring them into this convo like you are supporting them. They don’t support you.

👏👏👏
Agree. 100%

@Helloahoy It is absolutely an issue born of social contagion. You couldn’t be further from the truth. Across the world and throughout history, gender has been entirely fluid. How on earth can someone be the wrong gender when all that defines that gender is a social structure dependent on the shifting socio-cultural climate?

And you should know the TRAs would be grossly offended by you calling it a mental illness.

But if an aside but this is a good article on trans rights in Iran. It’s hardly a bastion of inclusion.

qz.com/889548/everyone-treated-me-like-a-saint-in-iran-theres-only-one-way-to-survive-as-a-transgender-person/amp/

Well if society had different understanding of gender , for example there being no characteristics that are related to sex that are not biological , then you couldn't have a gender identity at odds with your sex

Unfortunately mens rights will always trump woman's rights...
I can't see a way of keeping safe spaces for women until men decide they need to protect women from men.

The strongest indicator as to why this has so much social shift despite being completely batshit is the very reason it will not maintain traction. Because. These. People. Are. Men.