Single sex toilets and muslim women

[peonyred]

Since I am constantly being met with the "be kind" bollox and clearly am not perceived as being "kind", I have started asking people (mostly men and young people) how they feel about the fact that allowing men into women's loos means Muslim women and orthodox Jewish women cannot use them - at all. Therefore they have no access to any public toilets. TW can use unisex, mens or women's but their insistence on their rights to women's loos has shut out a significant number of women. This is without mentioning sexual abuse survivors (which appears not to register) First - am I right about this? Second, is there a Muslim woman out there who (with our backing) takes this to court? Is this the way though or am I kidding myself we'll ever get our spaces back?

There has been lots of outrage posted when male Muslims don’t “shake hands” or over female Muslims covering their hair/faces in public. On MN the majority found both expressions of their beliefs offensive. It seems odd now to be using them in this argument for single sex spaces.
Discussions about Iran “embracing transitioning” and “if” that means Muslims do are just odd. Muslims are not one race and certainly don’t support all cultural practices. Many Muslims will not have tattoos let alone remove breasts or penis. Certainly the ones I know would never use a mixed sex toilet, stay in a room where someone (if not their mother or wife) was breast feeding or encroach on womens spaces. Single sex spaces are common in their religion. I’d like to think people are beginning to understand that this isn’t inherently bad and in fact is empowering. More nuanced thinking is always to be encouraged.

See this is the type of comment that is in my opinion genuinely transphobic. No idea if that was the underlying intention or whether it was simply a parroting of a supposed "gotcha" without any critical analysis.

Transphobic because it implies that transwomen are out of control and unable to follow rules, laws or social norms without direct policing. Many trans people are ordinary, law abiding citizens who do not wish to tear apart women's rights.

Don't most of us generally go about more or less doing the right thing without constant, individual policing? I mean, I'm sure my neighbours lock their doors but if they didn't I wouldn't be in their houses nicking their stuff?

There was a thread on this a few years back which should be useful @peonyred

Muslim women and trans policies in the workplace www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4175451-muslim-women-and-trans-policies-in-the-workplace?msgid=-4175451#-4175451

@FunnyTalks Muslim women who observe their faith can't ablute before prayer (an absolute necessity) in the same space with men that aren't of family, a young boy or a male servant. Gender identity is completely irrelevant.
So no matter how lovely kind adorable the transwoman is a Muslim will be unable to use the bathroom (even with contained cubicles) if it's not an absolute certain single Sex space. This os scripture from the Koran.
Read the link to a previous thread I've posted below.
A decent transwoman who wishes to live their life as a woman will respect those wishes and find alternative facilities for themselves in respect of those women.
Otherwise I'm afraid they are just repeating male pattern dominance over women.

It didn't look like islamaphobia to me. It looked like object criticism of the situation. We cannot allign ourselves with our requirement for single sex spaces based on safety with those fighting for the requirement for single sex spaces based on patriarchy.

Many trans people are ordinary, law abiding citizens who do not wish to tear apart women's rights.

Then they need to take it up with those transwomen whose behaviour brings their trans position into disrepute. Not ask women to solve it for them.

I mean, I'm sure my neighbours lock their doors but if they didn't I wouldn't be in their houses nicking their stuff?

This depends where you live. We can get away with leaving doors unlocked and not expect anything to get nicked. A cousin in Manchester wouldn't dream of leaving doors unlocked.

I do not allign with any religion. I dislike many/most for their patriarchal acts and beliefs. I support their right to exist however (along with my own right to believe none of it), along with the right of all other philosophical beliefs to exist. I will support the right for women within the UK to have the ability to take part in public life, especially where a patriarchal religion (or any other aspect of patriarchy) would prevent it otherwise. It's not bowing to patriarchal religion, but supporting the women who might be excluded by it.

man alive

you don't have to 'align' yourself with patriarchal religions to want to preserve freedom of movement for the women who live under them

heavens to betsy some people are blinded by self righteousness

No. I think questioning why a woman who is British remains in a country she was born in because she sends her child to activity groups set up for her religion crossed over a few lines for me.

There is no minimising what was written last night.

She was asked why she lives in Britain, if she wants to be part of specifically Muslim groups. That's islamophobic, regardless of reasoning. The UK upholds the right to practice religious faith. It's exactly the same as any other call for someone percieved to be the 'wrong' colour or religion to 'go home'.

Religion is an awkward area for many feminists, myself included. That doesn't mean personal faith based attacks should be ignored. My feminism includes all women, including those of faith.

'The ‘torque’ just refers to the force applied. We call them ‘socket wrenches’ in my house if that helps.' - aha! Thanks. Yes. I think of these as ratchets.

Fucksake, wrong thread. Excuse me!

If we align ourselves with the patriarchy to get to the end goal we require then that is a sacrifice worth making.

It's called being a grown up.

I knew what you were talking about zombie. 😉

I feel I have a glimmer of insight into how the tractor porn MP felt ...

Pointing out the hypocrisy of a religion so obsessed by kindness and diversity (GI) iexcluding women who are actually diverse and marginalised is not aligning with patriarchal religions, @Fishwishy. I have no love of those cultural limitations, but I do have love of plenty of Muslim women who have those beliefs and I will defend their right to have safe and dignified access to public life as much as any other woman's. Especially given that many in that community are far more marginalised than any middle class white boy identifying into oppression.

Is a 'socket wrench' the name for the each item in my socket set? Love that box. Brilliant for IKEA furniture building. Except the items keep on falling out of their sockets.

I will never allign myself with these patriarchal religions just because there is one thing we share in common.

How jolly noble and righteous of you.

But since, realistically, expecting women to leave their families, friends, community etc, abandon their faith and all it means to them, and ... well, presumably set up somewhere else alone while embracing the whatever it is you're advocating as so very superior and more righteous than their way of life just so male people can get in female only spaces .....?

Is a bit insane really, not to mention unrealistic?

Again. What are we going to do with these women who are taxpayers and covered by the Equality Act and have the right of access and equality? And not to have their rights subordinated to a group of male people?

I'm reminded somewhat of the attitude that saw Native American and Aboriginal kids removed from their families to be taught 'better ways' by people who knew better than them and weren't putting up with this backward nonsense of having faiths that more powerful people didn't want to respect (and which got in the way of a snatch and grab raid on the resources held by those communities.)

Funny how history repeats itself, and how these attitudes towards others really do get no more pleasant to witness.

@MishyJDI tw are not recognized as women by Orthodox Judaism. I don’t know about Islam outside Iran.

We are all inextricably interwoven into patriarchal conventions. Deciding which ones you don’t want to support on a non secular basis comes across as pretty xenophobic.

We cannot allign ourselves with our requirement for single sex spaces based on safety with those fighting for the requirement for single sex spaces based on patriarchy. so irritating. It’s like reading “well I don’t mind trans people using the toilet of their choice” as though the posters assessment and feelings are the ONLY thing of value. I want single sex spaces because they

• make me feel safe


• protect my modesty


• are safer


• allow me not to accompany my daughters to the toilet


• respect my religion


• respect my history of assault


• give me refuge


• are cleaner

are ALL valid reasons for preferring to be in a single sex place. You aren’t fighting the patriarchy by refusing to support what other women want, even if you don’t agree with the “whys”.

Also the absolute naivety about women's lives, particularly women from minority faiths and cultures.

Considering how often women are told 'if you just met a TW you'd understand! (And willingly throw your rights away and not want them any more and stop being difficult)' it would do the TQ+ lobby in general a lot of good to try stopping ranting at female people long enough to try meeting and listening to a diverse range of them.

Not that I would expect it to work, as this would get in the way of achieving the desired goal, which women and their voices and needs and rights are so very in the way of.

Thank you to the women who checked on me, I appreciate it. Just to wade in on the patriarchy issue, I think assuming that religions are inherently patriarchal and that they alone are responsible for patriarchy is absurd. We live in a deeply patriarchal society. The pressure on women to be attractive, slim and sexually available is patriarchal. Opening up surrogacy is patriarchal. Low wages paid to women in typically 'female' jobs is patriarchal. The lack of support for female carers is patriarchal. None of these are religious issues. This thread is not about why some Muslim or Jewish women can't share spaces with men, it is about how these policies impact them. My experiences are valid and I have as much right to oppose the generalisation of mixed sex spaces as anyone else, regardless of my motivations. I'm perfectly able to decide which spaces I feel comfortable in and I can clearly see how this impacts many women negatively. Also, since you held France as a model, France is a deeply deeply racist and Islamophobic country, which has a lot to do with its colonial history. It's a country where the extreme right just scored over 40% in a presidential election and where whole political debates can be organised around issues such as, should Muslim women be allowed to wear a headscarf in public spaces and should Muslims be allowed to name their child "Muhammad". Really not a country that I would look up to, neither as a Muslim nor as a woman. That said, I am off to celebrate Eid! 🙂