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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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Original poster

Single sex toilets and muslim women

217 replies

peonyred · 01/05/2022 15:01

Since I am constantly being met with the "be kind" bollox and clearly am not perceived as being "kind", I have started asking people (mostly men and young people) how they feel about the fact that allowing men into women's loos means Muslim women and orthodox Jewish women cannot use them - at all. Therefore they have no access to any public toilets. TW can use unisex, mens or women's but their insistence on their rights to women's loos has shut out a significant number of women. This is without mentioning sexual abuse survivors (which appears not to register) First - am I right about this? Second, is there a Muslim woman out there who (with our backing) takes this to court? Is this the way though or am I kidding myself we'll ever get our spaces back?

OP posts:
Charley50 · 02/05/2022 09:57

Well said Itto ... Eid Mubarak!

Herja · 02/05/2022 09:59

Enjoy your celebrations @itto !

itto · 02/05/2022 10:20

Thanks Charley and Herja, and a happy Bank Holiday to you all!

Original poster
peonyred · 02/05/2022 10:57

MidCenturyClegs · 02/05/2022 08:55

There was a thread on this a few years back which should be useful @peonyred

Muslim women and trans policies in the workplace www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4175451-muslim-women-and-trans-policies-in-the-workplace?msgid=-4175451#-4175451

Thank you.

OP posts:
DomesticatedZombie · 02/05/2022 10:58

Eid Mubarak, itto, and anyone else who's celebrating.

Original poster
peonyred · 02/05/2022 11:26

itto · 02/05/2022 09:52

Thank you to the women who checked on me, I appreciate it. Just to wade in on the patriarchy issue, I think assuming that religions are inherently patriarchal and that they alone are responsible for patriarchy is absurd. We live in a deeply patriarchal society. The pressure on women to be attractive, slim and sexually available is patriarchal. Opening up surrogacy is patriarchal. Low wages paid to women in typically 'female' jobs is patriarchal. The lack of support for female carers is patriarchal. None of these are religious issues. This thread is not about why some Muslim or Jewish women can't share spaces with men, it is about how these policies impact them. My experiences are valid and I have as much right to oppose the generalisation of mixed sex spaces as anyone else, regardless of my motivations. I'm perfectly able to decide which spaces I feel comfortable in and I can clearly see how this impacts many women negatively. Also, since you held France as a model, France is a deeply deeply racist and Islamophobic country, which has a lot to do with its colonial history. It's a country where the extreme right just scored over 40% in a presidential election and where whole political debates can be organised around issues such as, should Muslim women be allowed to wear a headscarf in public spaces and should Muslims be allowed to name their child "Muhammad". Really not a country that I would look up to, neither as a Muslim nor as a woman. That said, I am off to celebrate Eid! 🙂

Brava itto! Enjoy your celebrations

OP posts:
woodhill · 02/05/2022 11:32

itto · 02/05/2022 09:52

Thank you to the women who checked on me, I appreciate it. Just to wade in on the patriarchy issue, I think assuming that religions are inherently patriarchal and that they alone are responsible for patriarchy is absurd. We live in a deeply patriarchal society. The pressure on women to be attractive, slim and sexually available is patriarchal. Opening up surrogacy is patriarchal. Low wages paid to women in typically 'female' jobs is patriarchal. The lack of support for female carers is patriarchal. None of these are religious issues. This thread is not about why some Muslim or Jewish women can't share spaces with men, it is about how these policies impact them. My experiences are valid and I have as much right to oppose the generalisation of mixed sex spaces as anyone else, regardless of my motivations. I'm perfectly able to decide which spaces I feel comfortable in and I can clearly see how this impacts many women negatively. Also, since you held France as a model, France is a deeply deeply racist and Islamophobic country, which has a lot to do with its colonial history. It's a country where the extreme right just scored over 40% in a presidential election and where whole political debates can be organised around issues such as, should Muslim women be allowed to wear a headscarf in public spaces and should Muslims be allowed to name their child "Muhammad". Really not a country that I would look up to, neither as a Muslim nor as a woman. That said, I am off to celebrate Eid! 🙂

Well said

Original poster
peonyred · 02/05/2022 11:34

5zeds · 02/05/2022 08:38

There has been lots of outrage posted when male Muslims don’t “shake hands” or over female Muslims covering their hair/faces in public. On MN the majority found both expressions of their beliefs offensive. It seems odd now to be using them in this argument for single sex spaces.
Discussions about Iran “embracing transitioning” and “if” that means Muslims do are just odd. Muslims are not one race and certainly don’t support all cultural practices. Many Muslims will not have tattoos let alone remove breasts or penis. Certainly the ones I know would never use a mixed sex toilet, stay in a room where someone (if not their mother or wife) was breast feeding or encroach on womens spaces. Single sex spaces are common in their religion. I’d like to think people are beginning to understand that this isn’t inherently bad and in fact is empowering. More nuanced thinking is always to be encouraged.

Why is it surprising? First of all, I don't happen to share those views, secondly I put the welfare of my fellow women front and centre of this issue. I believe that it is time for every woman who demands a single sex space to band together as we have seen there is power in numbers. Women who genuinely don't mind can use unisex toilets, and clearly there needs to be an investment to build more. I have had enough of the whataboutery and minimising of genuine concerns.

OP posts:
GingerPCatt · 02/05/2022 11:38

Happy eid to anyone who celebrates it.
A PP had a brilliant phrase that I feel should be the slogan for GC Feminism - biological not philosophical!

5zeds · 02/05/2022 14:12

Why is it surprising? First of all, I don't happen to share those views, secondly I put the welfare of my fellow women front and centre of this issue. I believe that it is time for every woman who demands a single sex space to band together as we have seen there is power in numbers. sadly not surprising at all. I used the word “odd” but I probably should have said it makes me uncomfortable when people pick and choose their attitudes to others based on how they can use those people. I know it will make Muslims uncomfortable. Though I doubt that will bother many people. Others peoples discomfort is rarely paramount if you don’t share their views.

5zeds · 02/05/2022 14:13

biological not philosophical
I like that too

EmilyBolton · 02/05/2022 14:54

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

EmilyBolton · 02/05/2022 14:55

Sorry first line should be trans women not trans men…though I know I’ve shared a public loo space with a few trans men too…don’t blame them for not using the means mind!

Original poster
peonyred · 02/05/2022 14:57

⬆This expresses how I feel too.

OP posts:
5zeds · 02/05/2022 15:05

The assumption seems to be that all trans women look like men in dresses, but a) that’s a gross mindset
Why? Why is it a gross concept that someone male who dresses in what they believe is a feminine way look like what they are? This is what I don’t get about the modern take on trans presentation. If there’s nothing wrong with being a transwoman WHY is it a problem that I look at you and see a transwomen? It honestly don’t get it.

Artichokeleaves · 02/05/2022 15:48

What is the practical difference between a TW who 'passes' (I don't like the term or the concept, but that is what is being mooted here) and a TW who is very obviously masculine and masculine presenting? Honestly?

Its irrelevant, since both would want the same thing: to enter a female single sex space on the grounds of identifying as a woman. How the male person looks, presents, the degree of transition, it's all irrelevant in practical terms because there is no way to say yes to one and no to another on grounds of appearance, quite apart from being exceptionally unfair! It's also not a game to play with females about 'can I sneak into your single sex space against your consent and will without you catching me', as this is deeply disrespectful to female people who are trying to share that they need single sex spaces. Not spaces where male people play with their boundaries.

The boundary is male. Anyone male. Have mixed sex, gender neutral spaces too, by all means, but some spaces need to be single sex so that all females have access to women's spaces, resources, facilities.

BackAgain777 · 02/05/2022 16:20

And if you're trans PURELY ON THE BASIS that you SAY you're trans, then you don't have to make any concessions to looking like / acting like (whatever those mean) a woman.
Literally, a 6ft 5, 20 stone, bearded, tattooed, bald, hairy, cauliflowered eared, missing toothed, muscle bound rugby player could walk into a ladies bathroom, declare they are trans, and there is not one thing that can be said to counter it.
Because, you are trans if you SAY you are trans.

That's what we are constantly being told no? "I am what I SAY I am" has become the mantra.
So why the obsession with saying that some pass and some don't? It's irrelevant.
(BTW. none pass in real life without the filters. And when you hear the voice it's game over).
n.b. apologies if the above description fits anyone's significant other or anyone on here!

nepeta · 02/05/2022 17:13

BackAgain777 · 02/05/2022 16:20

And if you're trans PURELY ON THE BASIS that you SAY you're trans, then you don't have to make any concessions to looking like / acting like (whatever those mean) a woman.
Literally, a 6ft 5, 20 stone, bearded, tattooed, bald, hairy, cauliflowered eared, missing toothed, muscle bound rugby player could walk into a ladies bathroom, declare they are trans, and there is not one thing that can be said to counter it.
Because, you are trans if you SAY you are trans.

That's what we are constantly being told no? "I am what I SAY I am" has become the mantra.
So why the obsession with saying that some pass and some don't? It's irrelevant.
(BTW. none pass in real life without the filters. And when you hear the voice it's game over).
n.b. apologies if the above description fits anyone's significant other or anyone on here!

This connects with the arguments I recently read about how the definition of 'woman' is moving from biological sex through 'female presentation' and finally into simply a statement 'I am a woman.'

Based on queer theory, which, rather astonishingly, is having a strong effect in Western gender politics right now.

Artichokeleaves · 02/05/2022 17:32

Well. The Western gender politics are trying to spread the word increasingly desperately that the definition of 'woman' means - well, whatever is most convenient for male people at the time.

But as MPs are increasingly starting to realise, it isn't working in the real world, and is serving only to make MPs look increasingly silly.

AnastasiaRomanov · 02/05/2022 17:45

Nicola Sturgeon doesn’t seem to realise this however.

RoyalCorgi · 02/05/2022 18:01

Religion is a protected characteristic under the Equality Act, so aside from the ethical issue about whether it's right or wrong to support our Muslim sisters, it is unquestionably the case that changing single-sex spaces such as toilets and changing rooms to mixed-sex spaces indirectly discriminates on the basis of religion.

Crumbler · 03/05/2022 17:20

I'm not sure why my post on this thread has been deleted. Is it for simply stating the truth that transwomen are men?

Moonmelodies · 03/05/2022 20:22

Which toilet would a Muslim transperson use?

Theeyeballsinthefuckingsky · 03/05/2022 20:28

The one that corresponds to their sex

MagpiePi · 04/05/2022 09:33

Fieldofgreycorn · 01/05/2022 20:55

Unisex spaces as an addition would only be a good thing. Provided they are completely self contained. Some trans women aren’t going to want to go into an enclosed space with men either.

In fact all cubicles being totally wall to floor would be a vast improvement. It’s so much more civilised.

We can't have trans women feeling unsafe now, can we?!