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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Single sex toilets and muslim women

217 replies

peonyred · 01/05/2022 15:01

Since I am constantly being met with the "be kind" bollox and clearly am not perceived as being "kind", I have started asking people (mostly men and young people) how they feel about the fact that allowing men into women's loos means Muslim women and orthodox Jewish women cannot use them - at all. Therefore they have no access to any public toilets. TW can use unisex, mens or women's but their insistence on their rights to women's loos has shut out a significant number of women. This is without mentioning sexual abuse survivors (which appears not to register) First - am I right about this? Second, is there a Muslim woman out there who (with our backing) takes this to court? Is this the way though or am I kidding myself we'll ever get our spaces back?

OP posts:
RhannionKPSS · 02/05/2022 01:26

Whenthegoatcomesin · 01/05/2022 21:50

@Helloahoy It is absolutely an issue born of social contagion. You couldn’t be further from the truth. Across the world and throughout history, gender has been entirely fluid. How on earth can someone be the wrong gender when all that defines that gender is a social structure dependent on the shifting socio-cultural climate?

And you should know the TRAs would be grossly offended by you calling it a mental illness.

And most women are grossly offended by men who want to invade our spaces, and take away our right to privacy, dignity and safety for ourselves and our children.

RhannionKPSS · 02/05/2022 01:38

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Helloahoy
Your recent unpleasant comments about a poster who wanted to protect her child by ensuring that the girl guides are single sex were snide and uncalled for in my opinion.
We saw very recently that the Girl Guides have been captured by Stonewall & have already had the ridiculous situation of TIM in their ranks.

5zeds · 02/05/2022 01:40

It’s not just Muslim women (though I can see that is your focus), Muslim men could not use a toilet with women. To do so is not “ok” and I think it would be the same for Jewish men???

RhannionKPSS · 02/05/2022 01:43

itto · 02/05/2022 00:34

Why live in the UK?? Because I happen to be British, not from 'Islamistan' or wherever you think Muslim people come from! I send my daughter to a Muslim group because it is the only one where I am confident she will not be sharing sleeping facilities or showers with males when away on camps, or won't have male adults providing any type of intimate care. I don't think those are unreasonable demands. For the record I don't mind calling people whatever names they fancy. I mind female-only spaces disappearing because that means many places become inaccessible to whole groups of women for various reasons, and as far as I am aware gender-neutral spaces are less safe for women.

Well said and O hope you know you are far from alone in your valid concerns.

RhannionKPSS · 02/05/2022 01:44

There are thousands of women who are pushing back to reclaim our rights.

MarshmallowSwede · 02/05/2022 05:31

Isn’t it amazing that men have free access to every part of society, yet it is us women who must exclude ourselves to ensure that their access to any and all
places remains? How progressive!

So again women are being asked to retreat and leave spaces to accommodate entitled memory. It’s funny now no matter people say trans women are women they still behave like entitled men.

Peregrina · 02/05/2022 05:38

There are thousands of women who are pushing back to reclaim our rights.

At last, and I am so pleased. We only won them in the first place by fighting for them, we didn't get them by being nice or kind.

Charley50 · 02/05/2022 05:55

Some horrible posts on here overnight. I have more in common with Muslim and Jewish women, than with any man who demands his way into a space where he isn't wanted. The majority of all women want to keep certain spaces women-only. What sort of man insists on being somewhere he knows he isn't wanted?

RogersOrganismicProcess · 02/05/2022 06:59

Have I been living in a bubble, or hasn’t it been the cultural norm, in the Uk, for a long time, to have single sex facilities? Also, doesn’t the Equalities Act (2010) have protections for sex and religious beliefs as part of their group of protected characteristics?
Questioning why someone would choose to live in the country of their birth, because they are trying to find ways to ensure their children’s sex and religious based rights are upheld and aligned, is quite frankly baffling and stinks of Islamaphobia.
I dare say a great many of us would choose a space for our daughters if we knew male bodied people weren’t prioritised there, over somewhere that accepted male wants over female need. Fuck it, I’d choose a space like that for me too. I’m my 40+ years I’ve lost count of the ways in which my body had been objectified, used/abused, diminished by the male sex, now we can add appropriation to that list too.
I stand with my fellow women, biological not philosophical, it is inconsequential to me if they are lesbian/straight, old/young, practicing whatever religion/none at all, from wherever, with whatever disabilities/abilities, other than to accept and empathise that some of the above will offer additional challenges to them in combination with their sex. I stand with them. More importantly society had an obligation to stand for them, for us, to ensure we are being given fair provision. It is not a ‘choice’ not to use the same bathroom as a bepenised person if your religious beliefs forbid you from doing so. Therefore these women are not being given fair and equal provision.
A TW may not have her feelings validated by using a gender neutral third space, but at the end of the day it is still a choice of two, mens bathroom with the men, neutral bathroom with some men and some women.

Nellodee · 02/05/2022 07:18

Isn’t it strange how quickly the slogan “my feminism is for ALL women” falls apart when met with religious groups?
“Yeah, well, they choose to be religious, so stuff ‘em”.

itto · 02/05/2022 07:19

How interesting that you need to resort to personal accusations about my supposed 'culture'. I am happen to be a white 'westerner' and my children attend all types of events with all types of people, in our wonderfully multicultural and multifaith part of the UK. Not that non-white women would be less legitimate to speak on this issue, but I am perfectly aware that I am in a privileged position. You appear to be seriously lacking in your understanding of British laws and customs. It is perfectly legal for women to discriminate on the basis of sex when needed, and we will continue to do so. Like it or not, Muslim women and other women of faith, women from different ethnic backgrounds and 'female' women have as much right to claim 'British culture' as you do. Anyway, I didn't come on here to debate with people who hold white supremacist views. I just wanted to add my testimony of how this affects me as a Muslim woman, as per the OP's question.

FlowerArranger · 02/05/2022 07:22

What sort of man insists on being somewhere he knows he isn't wanted?

Precisely. To date I have asked 3 men that as they were in the Ladies, they should use the Men's (in places where both had been labelled 'gender neutral' while retaining the Male/Female symbols on the doors). All of them faked surprise and told me that they were allowed to use this loo because it is 'gender neutral'.

These were ordinary middle aged men - nothing trans about them. At least 2 of them were doing this to intimidate women or because they got a kick out of it. They were practically smirking! This is what we'll be dealing with if this horrible trend continues.

FlowerArranger · 02/05/2022 07:26

Like it or not, Muslim women and other women of faith, women from different ethnic backgrounds and 'female' women have as much right to claim 'British culture' as you do

Well said, @itto !!!

HobnobsChoice · 02/05/2022 07:31

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Have I missed the part where itto said her daughter goes to a Muslim school and she only mixes with Muslims. Or that she isn't white either (there's lots of white Muslims. Unless Bosnians aren't white).
The idea that a woman who wants to observe her religion and also keep her daughters safe in a single sex group should move to another country when she was born and brought up in the UK is ludicrous and veers dangerously close to the rhetoric of the BNP. There's many issues with religion and oppression of women. Just like with TRAs the answers all seems to involve somehow women being forced to make the changes while men can just get on with their lives.

HemanOrSheRa · 02/05/2022 07:41

Helloahoy your posts to itto are really nasty and offensive.

itto I hope you are ok.

Knifer · 02/05/2022 07:58

Recently in my town, a self identified trans woman followed a young girl they had been harassing into a toilet and sexually assaulted her. Recently self identified, I might add, in order to gain sympathy or leniency in their upcoming incestuous rape case at crown court. According to people who know HIM, he has said that he thinks being in a quandary about his self ID will be a good defence and that if it's not, he will find life more enjoyable in a woman's prison and since self ID is a protected characteristic now, nobody can deny him. I very much doubt even telling them this in court would prevent him being sent to a woman's prison.

Sick pervert joining the ranks of far too many sick perverts identifying as women to get their kicks and having medals pinned to their chests for doing so. This generation sucks in so many ways, but the desperate fawning over any bloke who says he's a woman is one of the worst ways, definitely.

Rightsraptor · 02/05/2022 08:00

@Helloahoy are you seriously suggesting in your post of 00.13 that we women fight for separate swimming sessions for any men who want them? Women should focus on men. As ever. No.

And I think when such sessions have been discussed, swimming pools haven't had a good enough uptake from men to bother running them. Now why might that be?

Just accept that single sex spaces are important and even essential for most girls and women to take part in life. They have been integral to our lives and we aren't giving them up.

Knifer · 02/05/2022 08:06

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Herja · 02/05/2022 08:28

I have reported the Islamophobic attacks towards @itto. I do not normally report MRA's unpleasantness (preferring it to remain visible, showing the vindictive crueltly for what it is), but direct personal attacks go too far. British Muslims (and other Muslims in Britain) have a right to practice their faith without being questioned on their choice to live in the UK.

I note that @Helloahoy has also described a fictional trans person as 'it' (also reported, as actual transphobia. Trans people are not an 'it' any more than I am), so fuck knows whose side they think they're on... Not that of women or the trans community anyway.

I hope you are ok @itto 💐. You did not deserve that attack on your right to live in hour own country.

Herja · 02/05/2022 08:29

*your.

Helleofabore · 02/05/2022 08:31

NotMushroomInEre · 02/05/2022 01:24

How would you police this? There are trans women out there who physically look like women and if I'm not mistaken, literally are classed legally as women.

If you honestly think that a post pubescent male transitioner is likely to not be identified as being male by females, you must know transitioned males that have worked out how to disguise their gait, and have had some very expensive feminization surgery including their voice.

Even then, there will be other cues.

The latest guidance has clarified that where females have a reason for males to be excluded, those even with a GRC can be excluded.

Might I recommend that you spend some more time on MN reading past threads on these issues (yeah, MNHQ will be fixing advanced search in the future but it still works to thread level so that should help). I have found invariably, the dissemination of those particular issues are good here despite what very entrenched and heavily invested legal professionals working for Stonewall tell us.

Artichokeleaves · 02/05/2022 08:32

Ooh look. We've had the racism and the cultural intolerance and the religious intolerance pop along <ticks Bingo card>

Actually if anyone's interested, the reason for single sex swims for women came about because of Local Authorities tracking which groups of their communities were accessing taxpayer funded resources and which weren't.

When it was found that male engagement was pretty much even across the board but that there were groups of women who barely accessed at all, those women were consulted to ask why, and to find out what would let them access those resources. And the answer was: single sex sessions.

So single sex sessions were set up to meet this need, to permit equality of access, and those groups of women began to use those local resources that their taxes helped to pay for. All very successful. It addressed other unmet needs too across all women demographics, such as social isolation and mental health needs since many women reported finding it easier to try a women only session where they didn't feel embarrassed or judged in a swimming costume.

However then a new, shiny diversity target turned up and it involved male people wanting to join those swims, and so now many women who needed those swims and were excluded without them, are back to being excluded again so that male people can enjoy their personal use of a women's only swim validating their identity. And making it a mixed sex swim.

This isn't progress, is it? This is just bouncing females back out of equality to access.

There would be no problem at all in offering two different kinds of women only swims in the week's schedule, one being a mixed sex women's group (I know, but I'll go that far in offering respect in the hope that some might be reciprocally offered back) and one being a single sex female only group. A TQ+ only session is something that most pools I'm sure would consider (and they won't have loud and angry other groups turning up demanding to be centred in that session or else refusing to allow the session to exist the way that female only groups have to constantly endure).

If male people were not accessing community resources there would have been the same actions taken for them. They are not. If male people want male only swims then that's something they need to organise, and I'm sure there would be no barriers to them doing so.

It worries me too that instead of women being able to have inclusive female only activities that allow all females to be together, females are having to retreat in self defense into Muslim run, Jewish run, etc groups to be allowed to escape male people commandeering and wrecking their access without the faintest respect for anyone else but themselves. This isn't a good thing for females. It isn't 'inclusion' or 'diversity'. It makes it very clear the TQ+ lobby doesn't hold any value of inclusion, know anything about it or even understand what the words mean: it's just a Big Word to try and manipulate other people.

EveSix · 02/05/2022 08:32

Itto, thank you for your contribution, I really value it.
Rogers, spot on!

Charley50 · 02/05/2022 08:36

HemanOrSheRa · 02/05/2022 07:41

Helloahoy your posts to itto are really nasty and offensive.

itto I hope you are ok.

^^ same thoughts exactly

RinklyRomaine · 02/05/2022 08:36

Shocking racism there. I'd report it but I always think it's good for lurkers to see the inherent racism / homophobia / misogyny in this ideology.

As a woman of Jewish heritage living in a town with one of the largest Muslim communities, I can frankly say anyone who disregards the needs of these women, who really ARE the Most Marginalised (TM) unlike men who identify into oppression is beyond redemption. Faith leaders do spout on about inclusion and diversity, of course they do, they are either aiming for modern PR, transing away the gay, or recruiting.

Women in real life, women bought up those communities, living within a religious and cultural patriarchy are a different matter. Not all women, but huge numbers of women in my local Muslim community are being frozen out of public life. Swimming, shopping, shelters. Hospital wards. Women who speak poor English are not accessing healthcare, not allowing their daughters to integrate the way they did a decade ago. This isn't hearsay, it's happening, and these women are beginning to believe their isolation is a good thing, that their men are protecting them from predatory males. That they will be safer with the devil at home than with men who insist on attending women only swim sessions. And likely they will be. That is not inclusion.

How any woman dares to come here and shriek about intersectionality while disregarding those women is 🤯

@itto so many of my friends are in similar situations and it truly saddens me. DDs best friends are all Muslim girls but interacting outside of school is becoming increasingly difficult which is just so divisive. I'm glad your girls have those options. I took DD out of Rainbows and she will not be returning to GG.