Single sex toilets and muslim women

[peonyred]

Since I am constantly being met with the "be kind" bollox and clearly am not perceived as being "kind", I have started asking people (mostly men and young people) how they feel about the fact that allowing men into women's loos means Muslim women and orthodox Jewish women cannot use them - at all. Therefore they have no access to any public toilets. TW can use unisex, mens or women's but their insistence on their rights to women's loos has shut out a significant number of women. This is without mentioning sexual abuse survivors (which appears not to register) First - am I right about this? Second, is there a Muslim woman out there who (with our backing) takes this to court? Is this the way though or am I kidding myself we'll ever get our spaces back?

In Iran homosexuality is punishable by the death penalty hence the prevalence of men identifying as women

I’m saying that trans women have every right to use a women’s toilet. How would you propose to stop them?

I propose that TW could be expected to have the decency to realise that some spaces need to be female only, or they will be excluding females from access to anything so that they have a choice of facility and their own needs can be met. I also propose that TW and the very rich charities behind them demand gender neutral facilities as a way to use mixed sex toilets without excluding and harming others. That's reasonable. It's interesting that females seeking for female rights and equality when asked this question are able to think about solutions that work for everyone, instead of insisting that looking for solutions that work for everyone is evil and the opposition must lose and have nothing.

It’s not about ‘refusing to respect female only spaces’…it’s them using a space they are 100% valid in using.

No, I'm not playing that game. I'm driven to the discourtesy of being very frank about this, because I cannot defend my rights or those of other females without having to do so, and male people have chosen to push to this point.

We are talking about female only spaces. Some females need female only spaces. TW are not female. This has to be faced up to. It is not possible to let male people use female single sex spaces without excluding and harming those females who cannot use mixed sex spaces. It is not valid to take what you want at the expense of other people's rights and inclusion. Male people using whatever facilities they choose is not compatible with female people's equality of access and right to single sex spaces.

The answer is going to have to be that the TQ+ lobby learn a bit of tolerance and compromise. Just continuing to exclude females and deprive them of services is not ok and it is not an answer.

And to be very clear, when I mention gender neutral facilities above:

I mean gender neutral facilities in addition to single sex spaces

And a societal expectation that TQ+ people use the spaces either of their sex or the gender neutral facilities, and have the respect for other people's needs and equality and inclusion not to use single sex facilities that do not match their biological sex. Thereby taking their personal preference of all three choices open to them and leaving some females with nothing at all.

It’s not about ‘refusing to respect female only spaces’…it’s them using a space they are 100% valid in using.

Are we still being told by some posters that transitioned males are not denying their sex and that biological reality while other posters post logic like this?

100% ‘valid’ in using ‘female only spaces’ … you really need to understand that when needed, the Guidance is that females, I repeat ‘females’ can expect that where an organisation has declared a space is single sex under those guidelines, even males with GRC can be excluded.

Therefore, your ‘valid’ argument lacks coherency. If those males were ‘valid’ in using that space, they would not qualify for that exclusion. The fact that they are males being allowed to use female spaces has never been more apparent. Because if they were ‘validly’ female, they would not qualify for the exclusion.

I'm a Muslim woman. I don't believe humans can change sex and have certainly never come across practicing Muslims who believe that. Whatever is practised in Iran has zero relevance to me as a British Muslim woman, not anymore than Orthodox rulings would apply to a Protestant person. I do actively avoid gender neutral toilets and would leave if there was a male inside. I had a very negative experience of taking my child to the bathroom in a library and coming across a butt naked man (it's frequent for men to leave the door open apparently). I stopped using that library altogether. I also stopped sending my daughters to the toilets by themselves in restaurants and other public spaces, because I don't feel safe. I don't think this is necessarily due to me being Muslim, it's me remembering experiences with flashers and the likes, and trying to avoid that. It's an issue many Muslim women are aware of, and I have heard many who had negative experiences but don't dare speaking up. I believe Jewish women are also having issues. In practical terms that means that instead of attending women-only activities (like swimming and gym sessions), many women seek sessions run by other Muslims where they can ensure there are no male present. I also send my daughter to a Muslim-run guides group for the same reasons.

And women aren't even a minority. We just happen to be oppressed because on average we are smaller and physically weaker than men, and vulnerable due to being the sex to get pregnant and give birth.

My Muslim colleague stopped going swimming because the women-only sessions are for 'anyone who identifies as a woman.'

Aren't floor to ceiling doors unsafe in case of the person inside collapsing or having a seizure?

@itto , @Charley50
Amazing isn't it, we are pushed to be kind and be inclusive yet those doing the pushing don't care that their version of inclusiveness marginalises large swathes of the community.

@Charley50 And I actually think that’s where so much of misogyny comes from. The capacity to give birth to offspring - it’s such a concession to power isn’t it? It’s massive. It makes them so vulnerable if they aren’t then able to have power over us.

This is my experience too. I have noticed since Covid restrictions have been lifted that many cafes have made their toilets unisex when they weren’t before. I stopped somewhere yesterday which had two unisex toilets facing each other. Men and women milling around trying to get into one of them. It was really awkward. Especially since it wasn’t clear when one was occupied. So lots of trying if handles in a very narrow space. Having to leave and come back, etc. Women with young daughters waiting for men to come out.

That’s really sad.

Yea I think I read somewhere theories about men fearing women back in the day (way back obviously) because we had this amazing power to give birth. So they had to put us in our place; and they've never stopped!

@Charley50 And explains why so much of male power needs to be oriented around limiting our mobility and freedoms. Right down to literally coercive sexual violence that is all about pinning women down.

@Charley50 I mean Christ even a pair of heels and a lack of pockets and suddenly we can’t get anywhere quickly or take anything with us. Anyway, sorry for digression.

We can't go around adjusting our customs in the UK to accommodate patriarchal religions of any sort Christian Muslim or Jewish. I want a secular society where you can believe whatever you want in the privacy of your own home but not when it comes to public spaces. France I believe is excelling at this as a French first secular society.

We can't go around adjusting our customs in the UK to accommodate patriarchal religions

The irony of this statement. So based on this, we don’t let men have access to vulnerable females either, non? It doesn’t get more ‘Catering to the patriarchy’ than that.

I mean there are many other rules of Islam and authodox Jewishness I'm sum the fwr section of mumsnet Is certainly not embracing. Should those freedoms excluding women from certain areas because men and women must be separate be indulged and accommodated too?

As I say secular country secular rules inside your own home believe what you like. France has definitely got it right there.

As I say secular country secular rules inside your own home believe what you like. France has definitely got it right there.

We can't go around adjusting our customs in the UK to accommodate men who think they are women. I want a s
society where you can believe whatever you want in the privacy of your own home but not when it comes to public spaces.

You are incorrect, a man can't be a woman. He can wear "female" clothing, pump himself full of hormones and have surgeons chop off some body parts and add others. He cannot change his sex. He remains male. Transwomen are adult human males.

I am not Muslim or Jewish, I do not wish to share single sex spaces with men.

For the avoidance of doubt. I do not believe that men should be in women's toilets or vice versa.

I just don't believe the enemy of thy enemy is thy friend. And it's only certain parts of these religions that have major issues with them and I really don't think western secular feminism has much in common with them Indeed some sects of these religions are actively opposite to feminism.

Does it ever occur to anyone just how RIDICULOUS the battle cry "transwomen are women" actually is?

We ALL know it's not true.
Even the people who SAY it know it's not true.
Even transwomen know it's not true.
It's like saying "the sky is green".
Repetition of a phrase does not mean it gains credence.

Men are not women.
And transwomen are men.
Like it or not.

You are entitled to your own opinions.
You are NOT entitled to your own FACTS.

@Fishwishy
UK customs were always same sex for public spaces like toilets, changing rooms and many sports facilities. The fact that this alignes with the beliefs of some religions doesn't mean it should be thrown aside in an effort to prove how secular you are. I have no religious affiliation but do not want to share toilet facilties with men and would prefer female only swimming classes.