A trans-Identified BDSM fan/gun nut is now a senior leader at Girlguiding

[Scraggythang]

Via Glinner’s sub stack. Sorry if this has already been posted!

grahamlinehan.substack.com/p/wtf-are-girlguiding-thinking

Spot on Arabella.
Why on earth some people think Mumsnet is an appropriate venue to parade their fascination for fetishes around children I cannot imagine.
As you say: we see you.

“barleybadminton

Should we ban goths and punks from working with kids? They often walk around the streets wearing fetish inspired clothing. Who else should got caught up in this puritanical moral crusade? Is it twin set and pearls all round now and anything else is a safeguarding risk?“

The intention behind Goth’s and Punk’s clothing is not sexual.

Probably few punks or goths volunteer to be Girl Guide leaders anyway, as they tend to be of a younger age group.

Anything response involving “pearls “ on this site simply implies “Shut Up”

@ArabellaScott

Frotteurism. A minor incident from a lifetime of bullshit rape culture (cw):

As a 10 year old girl, on the tube in London, a man masturbated against me. He left semen all over my skirt. I had no idea at the time what had happened, only that I was very distressed, upset and felt ashamed.

Dirty old men do this type of thing and don't care about the girl, in fact they take pleasure in her suffering. A child has not even the slightest understanding of the dynamics at play.

As a 10 year old, one has no understanding of not only what drives sex but particularly abusive, non-consensual sex. It would be like trying to write an exam paper on a subject I'd never studied, in Arabic, blindfolded. It has taken a lifetime to unravel layers of shame, confusion, obfuscation and 'kink positive' narratives to realise exactly what happened to me that day.

Unfortunately I now have a far greater understand of exactly what is happening, that the man who did that knew exactly what he was doing. He was a predator, he did it on purpose, he sought it out, knowing that I had not consented, in fact because I had not consented and was not able to consent.

I see it now very clearly.

Predators are ubiquitous. They are common. They are persistent. It's banal, and something that women sadly learn to deal with. By the time women get to middle-age, we've had a fucking lifetime of being used like this: a girlhood beset by the predatory bullshit, that goes hand in hand with being abused for being frigid/prudish/slutty, then an adulthood putting up with more of the same along with the continual background hum of socialisation that continues to tell us we're wrong for speaking out about it, wrong for being angry, wrong for saying no.

We should shut up and let the men do what they need to do to get off. We should be kind about the failure of judgement, the several failures of judgement, the silly jokes, the cheeky jokes, the saucy outfit, the inappropriate comment, the comedy sex prop, the careless photos, the nicknames, the forgetfulness, the accidental slippage, the I-can't-help-myself, the he-didn't-realise, the all-good-fun the let's-not-spoil-it the hush, hush, hush. Don’t be a prude, don’t be a pearl clutcher, don’t moralise, don’t speak up.

Mocking women for talking about our history, for speaking our truth, for protecting our children?

I see you.

No, thank you.

Excellent post.

And on that note, badminton invoking carry on films as an example of 'naughtiness', was irritating, and, deliberately missing the point again.

Those are films. And quite shockingly dated, at that. If you actually had a real life person sniggering at breasts and trying to look up women's skirts, of course they shouldn't be involved in authority over children.

Using carry on films as a demonstration of 'harmless fun', and equating it to the behaviour of the person who is the subject of this thread, is yet more manipulation.

I think the word/concept 'harmless' is doing a lot of lifting in barley's posts.

It's an interesting one, because if one is compelled to use the word 'harmless' it seems to be a tacit admission that the thing is not suitable or appropriate.

One doesn't use the word 'harmless' in relation to, say, a post about making soup. Or a sewing badge. Or a woman in an evening outfit.

It's only paired with those things that are clearly inappropriate:

'harmless' fetish
'harmless' kink
'harmless' joke
'harmless' mistake

If we're discussing safeguarding, I think we need to strip out the enabling, persuasive, manipulative adjectives/adverbs. We need to look at the situation clearly, without trying to prettify it or dramatise it or ascribe motives to anyone. Safeguarding is all about not making excuses, not trying to twist a situation to show it in a different light. We just want the bare facts.

kink
porn
joke about sex
mistake

These terms need to be used directly, clearly.

If you actually had a real life person sniggering at breasts and trying to look up women's skirts, of course they shouldn't be involved in authority over children.

Yes, I remember a New Year's Eve event in my 20s when a bloke who was a friend of a friend was walking with my husband and me through a crowd single file. He took the opportunity to cop a feel under my skirt while we were walking through. Must of been all the more exciting because my husband was holding my hand in front of me. I was so shocked I didn't say anything until later.

Do I think that person should be in a position of caring with children? No fucking way. Do you barley? Really?

Because it was just like a 'carry on' film and one of your fetishes and kinks you keep posting about that apparently is all fine.

I mean, I even gave up my gym membership because that bloke was a regular at the gym I attended.

@ArabellaScott

I think the word/concept 'harmless' is doing a lot of lifting in barley's posts.

It's an interesting one, because if one is compelled to use the word 'harmless' it seems to be a tacit admission that the thing is not suitable or appropriate.

One doesn't use the word 'harmless' in relation to, say, a post about making soup. Or a sewing badge. Or a woman in an evening outfit.

It's only paired with those things that are clearly inappropriate:

'harmless' fetish
'harmless' kink
'harmless' joke
'harmless' mistake

If we're discussing safeguarding, I think we need to strip out the enabling, persuasive, manipulative adjectives/adverbs. We need to look at the situation clearly, without trying to prettify it or dramatise it or ascribe motives to anyone. Safeguarding is all about not making excuses, not trying to twist a situation to show it in a different light. We just want the bare facts.

kink
porn
joke about sex
mistake

These terms need to be used directly, clearly.

Another excellent post Arabella.

The Women Rights Network is highlighting the issue on Twitter - worth getting involved if you feel Girl Guides have to rethink their approach.
twitter.com/WomensRightsNet

@ArabellaScott

I think the word/concept 'harmless' is doing a lot of lifting in barley's posts.

It's an interesting one, because if one is compelled to use the word 'harmless' it seems to be a tacit admission that the thing is not suitable or appropriate.

One doesn't use the word 'harmless' in relation to, say, a post about making soup. Or a sewing badge. Or a woman in an evening outfit.

It's only paired with those things that are clearly inappropriate:

'harmless' fetish
'harmless' kink
'harmless' joke
'harmless' mistake

If we're discussing safeguarding, I think we need to strip out the enabling, persuasive, manipulative adjectives/adverbs. We need to look at the situation clearly, without trying to prettify it or dramatise it or ascribe motives to anyone. Safeguarding is all about not making excuses, not trying to twist a situation to show it in a different light. We just want the bare facts.

kink
porn
joke about sex
mistake

These terms need to be used directly, clearly.

Yes, well spotted. Use of the word harmless indicates that it might look harmful, but let's minimise it so it isn't.

Honestly. The manipulation is off the scale.

I'm sorry that happened to you, HelleofaBore. Men often use this kind of dynamic as a cover for sexual assault.

'naughty' 'cheeky' 'harmless' 'fun', if we name it or call it out we risk both our safety and social opprobrium.

'the worst thing about male violence is it makes men look bad'

It both excuses and minimises it in a predator's mind, justification for his actions, and exerts pressure on the victim to not complain or speak up. They can present abuse as kindness, indulgence, a joke, all sorts of things.

Women know this game.

Well Arabella. I had not even thought about it from the perspective of that man's actions because I always associated it with my fault because I was wearing a short skirt (classic victim blaming, I know). I knew what he did was wrong, but in my youth, never thought through the lack of consequences for that man. (and we left the area within 12 months after so put it behind me)

An action that society viewed as 'harmless' back in the 90s because it was so common. It was the era when 'carry on' was still around.

There is a line that should not be crossed regarding kink and fetishes that some posters seem keen to redraw in favour of being allowed, and to be considered 'harmless'. That is the only meaning that I can draw from posting studies telling women to accept fetishists and kink because it is the 'norm'.

Arabella

Using others is not harmless. It is wrong.

Having wholly inappropriate boundaries is wrong. Employing people in responsible roles with children who are not capable of understanding or prioritising safeguarding or putting the needs of children above their own is wrong.

It's wrong. Deal with it. The desires of an adult do not make all boundaries and responsibilities upon them go away. This whole 'queering' everything is purely and simply about trying to make exploiting others, behaving badly towards others and breaking the boundaries that protect others look something justifiable instead of bloody awful, unacceptable behaviour that everyone should be required to control. No excuses. No exceptions.

I don't know why you keep going on about Queer theory, this has nothing to do with that. This is about the normal diversity of adult sexual interests, tastes and kinks and avoiding going back to a world where women were slut shamed for their sexuality and considered a risk to children if their consensual sexual activities with other adults were outside of the mainstream

I dont know enough about queer theory, but in broad strokes it's trying to challenge heterosexuality being the default sexuality and normalizing kinks and other sexualities. Or exactly what you are doing by telling us x amount of people have kinks and fetishes.
As for going back to a world where women were slut shamed for their sexuality
Did we ever leave that world? Cos from what I see women are still slut shamed the world over every day.
Any reported rape will have many comments asking what she was doing there at that time, what was she wearing etc ad infinitum.

It's funny, I know many women active within the BDSM community. They are, for the most part, absolutely scrupulous about boundaries, consent and appropriate behaviour.

Speak to them, and they'd tell you how a strong, clear and thorough grasp of boundaries, clear communication, and informed consent are the absolutely fundamental basic condition to involvement of any form of BDSM. Dismissal, fudging, or attempts to minimise the importance of consent is usually picked up on quite quickly and hugely frowned on.

But of course there are predators and manipulative arseholes within the BDSM 'community', too. As you'd expect, predators are highly likely to target this type of community and try to erode the boundaries within it. Plenty abusive males are of course going to be keen to use any opportunity to access victims.

'safe, sane, and consensual' used to be the mantra. Don't seem to hear it so much anymore. Much more of the 'don't kink shame' and 'love is love' and 'pearl clutching'. I wonder why?

@ArabelkaScott
“It's an interesting one, because if one is compelled to use the word 'harmless' it seems to be a tacit admission that the thing is not suitable or appropriate. “

You are right but until you said it I had not realised that before.

It is always said in the context where there certainly is harm of done kind, in order to dispute the harmfulness or in order to assert that it won’t be too harmful.

ArabellaScott

•Frotteurism. A minor incident from a lifetime of bullshit rape culture (cw):•

•As a 10 year old girl, on the tube in London, a man masturbated against me*

@ArabellaScott
That was a dreadful thing to happen to you as a little girl. Absolutely nightmarish, and I am so sorry.

I wonder when it got its frothy French name?
Who were the English men so sophisticated that they were ready with the French?

Fantastic post Arabella.

I would also apply the second half of it to the seemingly never-ending number of transvestites who appear to be quite open about part of their fetish being that women don't consent. Those who like to shock, those who write guardian columns about enjoying making female shop assistants collect up items for them, those who like trying on bras in women's changing rooms, those who, quite simply, enjoy the power they hold over others.

It' why I think transvestitism isn't a harmless fetish, it's why I don't like drag, I don't like public displays of bondage gear at so-called family pride marches, I don't laugh when I see police with adult male "pup"s on leads - I could go on.

The whole point of a fetish is that it's outside the norm (and until recently outside the view of society, which fits with the specific rules Arabella refers to above). Normalise the public acceptance of "minor, harmless" fetishes and the boundaries are simply pushed that little bit further.

I agree. No thank you.

the technology which underpins the internet is very dfficult to control

This is actually not true. In this instance you have no idea what you're talking about. There is as yet no will to remove porn (as it makes money for a few and it keeps women in their place)
But it could easily be done and the dark web could easily be dismantled.
Obviously it would be an ongoing challenge but it very definitely could be overcome.

@notoast and @ArabellaScott I’m so sorry.

@notoast. I’ve pm’d you

@Terfydactyl

the technology which underpins the internet is very dfficult to control

This is actually not true. In this instance you have no idea what you're talking about. There is as yet no will to remove porn (as it makes money for a few and it keeps women in their place)
But it could easily be done and the dark web could easily be dismantled.
Obviously it would be an ongoing challenge but it very definitely could be overcome.

Of course. There's no appetite to do it, that's the problem.

“Datun

Terfydactyl
the technology which underpins the internet is very dfficult to control

This is actually not true. In this instance you have no idea what you're talking about. There is as yet no will to remove porn (as it makes money for a few and it keeps women in their place)
But it could easily be done and the dark web could easily be dismantled.
Obviously it would be an ongoing challenge but it very definitely could be overcome.
Of course. There's no appetite to do it, that's the problem.“

Yes, if the porn sites were somehow tempting Al Qaida or Russian propaganda sites they’d soon be made very difficult to access or shut down.

But if you read threads on other boards here about porn, a lot of people seem to see it as normal, natural or even a right.

@Terfydactyl

the technology which underpins the internet is very dfficult to control

This is actually not true. In this instance you have no idea what you're talking about. There is as yet no will to remove porn (as it makes money for a few and it keeps women in their place)
But it could easily be done and the dark web could easily be dismantled.
Obviously it would be an ongoing challenge but it very definitely could be overcome.

Haha, try telling that to the entertainment companies who have spent billions and successfully lobbied for ever more draconian laws in an effort to shut down torrent sites. In over two decades they've barely made a dent in online piracy and most of that's not even on the dark web.

The intention behind Goth’s and Punk’s clothing is not sexual.

How do you know? There's lot of goths on the kink scene. Perhaps we could have an agreed dress code that those who work with children must adhere to in public, lest their fashion choices corrupt young minds.

@barleybadminton

The intention behind Goth’s and Punk’s clothing is not sexual.

How do you know? There's lot of goths on the kink scene. Perhaps we could have an agreed dress code that those who work with children must adhere to in public, lest their fashion choices corrupt young minds.

That would be the work place dress code. Yes.

@barleybadminton

The intention behind Goth’s and Punk’s clothing is not sexual.

How do you know? There's lot of goths on the kink scene. Perhaps we could have an agreed dress code that those who work with children must adhere to in public, lest their fashion choices corrupt young minds.

You don't work with children do you barley? And you're not a parent? And you've not had safeguarding training?

Most of us on here know that most workplaces have a dress code. And kinks and fetishes are not welcome around children (except sadly in the distorted minds of those obsessed by fetishes).

Most of us on here know that most workplaces have a dress code. And kinks and fetishes are not welcome around children (except sadly in the distorted minds of those obsessed by fetishes).?

Were they at work in that photo?