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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

BBC cotton ceiling thread, number 2

397 replies

PurgatoryOfPotholes · 27/10/2021 13:33

Due to some people's fervent objections, here is the article with the mention of the questionnaire excised.

As you can see, the article stands without it.

part 1

Is a lesbian transphobic if she does not want to have sex with trans women? Some lesbians say they are increasingly being pressured and coerced into accepting trans women as partners - then shunned and even threatened for speaking out. Several have spoken to the BBC, along with trans women who are concerned about the issue too.

Warning: Story contains strong language

"I've had someone saying they would rather kill me than Hitler," says 24-year-old Jennie*.

"They said they would strangle me with a belt if they were in a room with me and Hitler. That was so bizarrely violent, just because I won't have sex with trans women."

Jennie is a lesbian woman. She says she is only sexually attracted to women who are biologically female and have vaginas. She therefore only has sex and relationships with women who are biologically female.

Jennie doesn't think this should be controversial, but not everyone agrees. She has been described as transphobic, a genital fetishist, a pervert and a "terf" - a trans exclusionary radical feminist.

"There's a common argument that they try and use that goes 'What if you met a woman in a bar and she's really beautiful and you got on really well and you went home and you discovered that she has a penis? Would you just not be interested?'" says Jennie, who lives in London and works in fashion.

"Yes, because even if someone seems attractive at first you can go off them. I just don't possess the capacity to be sexually attracted to people who are biologically male, regardless of how they identify."

I became aware of this particular issue after I wrote an article aboutsex, lies and legal consent.

Several people got in touch with me to say there was a "huge problem" for lesbians, who were being pressured to "accept the idea that a penis can be a female sex organ".

I knew this would be a hugely divisive subject, but I wanted to find out how widespread the issue was.

Ultimately, it has been difficult to determine the true scale of the problem because there has been little research on this topic - only one survey to my knowledge. However, those affected have told me the pressure comes from a minority of trans women, as well as activists who are not necessarily trans themselves.

They described being harassed and silenced if they tried to discuss the issue openly. I received online abuse myself when I tried to find interviewees using social media.

One of the lesbian women I spoke to, 24-year-old Amy*, told me she experienced verbal abuse from her own girlfriend, a bisexual woman who wanted them to have a threesome with a trans woman.

When Amy explained her reasons for not wanting to, her girlfriend became angry.

"The first thing she called me was transphobic," Amy said. "She immediately jumped to make me feel guilty about not wanting to sleep with someone."

She said the trans woman in question had not undergone genital surgery, so still had a penis.

"I know there is zero possibility for me to be attracted to this person," said Amy, who lives in the south west of England and works in a small print and design studio.

"I can hear their male vocal cords. I can see their male jawline. I know, under their clothes, there is male genitalia. These are physical realities, that, as a woman who likes women, you can't just ignore."

Amy said she would feel this way even if a trans woman had undergone genital surgery - which some opt for, while many don't.

Soon afterwards Amy and her girlfriend split up.

"I remember she was extremely shocked and angry, and claimed my views were extremist propaganda and inciting violence towards the trans community, as well as comparing me to far-right groups," she said.

Another lesbian woman, 26-year-old Chloe*, said she felt so pressured she ended up having penetrative sex with a trans woman at university after repeatedly explaining she was not interested.

They lived near each other in halls of residence. Chloe had been drinking alcohol and does not think she could have given proper consent.

"I felt very bad for hating every moment, because the idea is we are attracted to gender rather than sex, and I did not feel that, and I felt bad for feeling like that," she said.

Ashamed and embarrassed, she decided not to tell anyone.

"The language at the time was very much 'trans women are women, they are always women, lesbians should date them'. And I was like, that's the reason I rejected this person. Does that make me bad? Am I not going to be allowed to be in the LGBT community anymore? Am I going to face repercussions for that instead?' So I didn't actually tell anyone."

Hearing about experiences like these led one lesbian activist to begin researching the topic. Angela C. Wild is co-founder of Get The L Out, whose members believe the rights of lesbians are being ignored by much of the current LGBT movement.

She and her fellow activists have demonstrated at Pride marches in the UK, where they have faced opposition. Pride in London accused the group of "bigotry, ignorance and hate".

"Lesbians are still extremely scared to speak because they think they won't be believed, because the trans ideology is so silencing everywhere," she said.

"I thought I would be called a transphobe or that it would be wrong of me to turn down a trans woman who wanted to exchange nude pictures," one woman wrote. "Young women feel pressured to sleep with trans women 'to prove I am not a terf'."

One woman reported being targeted in an online group. "I was told that homosexuality doesn't exist and I owed it to my trans sisters to unlearn my 'genital confusion' so I can enjoy letting them penetrate me," she wrote.

One compared going on dates with trans women to so-called conversion therapy - the controversial practice of trying to change someone's sexual orientation.

"I knew I wasn't attracted to them but internalised the idea that it was because of my 'transmisogyny' and that if I dated them for long enough I could start to be attracted to them. It was DIY conversion therapy," she wrote.

Another reported a trans woman physically forcing her to have sex after they went on a date.

"[They] threatened to out me as a terf and risk my job if I refused to sleep with [them]," she wrote. "I was too young to argue and had been brainwashed by queer theory so [they were] a 'woman' even if every fibre of my being was screaming throughout so I agreed to go home with [them]. [They] used physical force when I changed my mind upon seeing [their] penis and raped me."

While welcomed by some in the LGBT community, Angela's report was described as transphobic by others.

"[People said] we are worse than rapists because we [supposedly] try to frame every trans woman as a rapist," said Angela.

"This is not the point. The point is that if it happens we need to speak about it. If it happens to one woman it's wrong. As it turns out it happens to more than one woman."

Trans YouTuber Rose of Dawn has discussed the issue on her channelin a video called "Is Not Dating Trans People 'Transphobic'?"

"This is something I've seen happen in real life to friends of mine. This was happening before I actually started my channel and it was one of the things that spurred it on," said Rose.

"What's happening is women who are attracted to biological females and female genitalia are finding themselves put in very awkward positions, where if for example on a dating website a trans woman approaches them and they say 'sorry I'm not into trans women', then they are labelled as transphobic."

Rose made the video in response to a series of tweets bytrans athlete Veronica Ivy, then known as Rachel McKinnon,whowrote about hypothetical scenarioswhere trans people are rejected, and argued that "genital preferences" are transphobic.

I asked Veronica Ivy if she would speak to me but she did not want to.

Rose believes views like this are "incredibly toxic". She believes the idea that dating preferences are transphobic is being pushed by radical trans activists and their "self-proclaimed allies", who have extreme views which don't reflect the views of trans women she knows in real life.

"Certainly from my own friends group, the trans women I'm friends with, almost all of them agree lesbians are free to exclude trans women from their dating pool," she said.

However, she believes even trans people are afraid to talk openly about this for fear of abuse.

"People like me receive quite a lot of abuse from trans activists and their allies," she said.

"The trans activist side is incredibly rabid against people who they see as stepping out of line."

Debbie Hayton, a science teacher who transitioned in 2012 andwrites about trans issues, worries some people transition without realising how hard it will be to form relationships.

Although there is currently little data on the sexual orientation of trans women, she believes most are female-attracted because they are biologically male and most males are attracted to women.

"So when they [trans women] are trying to find partners, when lesbian women say 'we want women', and heterosexual women say they want a heterosexual man, that leaves trans women isolated from relationships, and possibly feeling very let down by society, angry, upset and feeling that the world is out to get them," she said.

Debbie thinks it's fine if a lesbian woman does not want to date a trans woman, but is concerned some are being pressured to do so.

"The way that shaming is used is just horrific; it's emotional manipulation and warfare going on," she said.

"These women who want to form relationships with other biological women are feeling bad about that. How did we get here?"

Stonewall is the largest LGBT organisation in the UK and Europe. I asked the charity about these issues but it was unable to provide anyone for interview. However, in a statement, chief executive Nancy Kelley likened not wanting to date trans people to not wanting to date people of colour, fat people, or disabled people.

She said: "Sexuality is personal and something which is unique to each of us. There is no 'right' way to be a lesbian, and only we can know who we're attracted to.

"Nobody should ever be pressured into dating, or pressured into dating people they aren't attracted to. But if you find that when dating, you are writing off entire groups of people, like people of colour, fat people, disabled people or trans people, then it's worth considering how societal prejudices may have shaped your attractions.

"We know that prejudice is still common in the LGBT+ community, and it's important that we can talk about that openly and honestly."

OP posts:
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Artichokeleaves · 31/10/2021 11:45

It is important for understanding this to notice that you can find no end of references to sexual violence on social media in reference to women having boundaries about sex with TW. Hundreds in a brief google search. There is a flood of reference to raping, punching, harming, murdering women who dare to say no to sex or want their consent respected in all parts of this political movement.

I have never yet seen anything at all about reciprocal caring. Reciprocal respect. Wanting to connect with and understand another person in an intimate relationship.

We have Rachel McKinnon openly and publicly and without hesitation talking to interviewers about female sexual partners expecting nothing more than 'learning to cope' with providing a sexual experience where the enjoyment and desire is very obviously assigned exclusively to the TW involved. The woman in this scenario is described as dehumanised and objectified to the point of sex not being something they should enjoy or that should be mutual, but a duty they can expect nothing more than training themselves to tolerate to serve a higher purpose.

Who would ever, in their right mind, encourage a woman to enter into an intimate relationship with dynamics such as this? No one could call this a healthy relationships.

The cognitive dissonance and enabling of some very disturbing perspectives towards females and entitlement to being provided with sex without responsibility or reciprocation or even being able to see the other person as equally human? It's beyond covering up now. This has to be faced up to.

TheHoneyBadger · 31/10/2021 14:17

“During out honeymoon my husband said he had something important to talk about. He wanted us to never have sex unless we were both really up for it. He believed that having sex because of a feeling of obligation was what killed desire. Better less sex than feeling you ought to“

I’m very much in agreement with your husband. It utterly kills desire and it’s very hard to bring desire (and respect) back to life once you go down that road.

Enough4me · 31/10/2021 21:29

The posts on Twitter about TW calling themselves lesbians say things like, surely lesbians use dildos, so why not accept a woman's penis?

They really don't understand that lesbians aren't looking for heterosexual sex. It's like they sincerely believe that lesbians are desperate for a penis on a women's body Hmm

2319inprogress · 31/10/2021 21:42

This seems to apply to a significant amount of men
It's like they sincerely believe that lesbians are desperate for a penis
So twisting it to fit another male fantasy doesn't seem that much of a reach Hmm

BondiBeachBabe · 31/10/2021 23:14

This reply has been deleted

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Helleofabore · 01/11/2021 09:22

Andrew Doyle covered this with Helen Joyce last night on GBTV from about 1.23 in.

RoyalCorgi · 01/11/2021 10:33

The irony is its published in the Mail. Ironically i am currently seeing a trend of the mail doing a number of actual journalistic pieces (rather than celeb trash fodder or nonsense pieces to wind up people) on subjects across the board - but particularly controversial ones - where the BBC then takes up the same story after its already broken.

That's true, but the Mail has been publishing excellent journalism for a long time. Most of us (and I include myself in this) are so used to thinking of the Mail as a right-wing rag that we failed to notice it until we spotted how good they were on the impact of trans demands on women's rights.

Datun · 01/11/2021 10:56

[quote Helleofabore]Andrew Doyle covered this with Helen Joyce last night on GBTV from about 1.23 in.

[/quote] Wow, Helen Joyce really nailed it there.
Helleofabore · 01/11/2021 11:19

I think that the more activists keep going, the more precise Helen Joyce gets in who she is discussing. She really doesn't pull punches in discussing this particular issue.

Datun · 01/11/2021 11:52

@Helleofabore

I think that the more activists keep going, the more precise Helen Joyce gets in who she is discussing. She really doesn't pull punches in discussing this particular issue.
She really doesn't. And she does a really good job of separating men with gender dysphoria, and transactivists who are pushing an ideology.

She is also spot-on about it attracting misogynists who can freely shout at women and threaten them and be thought of as progressive.

Artichokeleaves · 01/11/2021 12:54

@Enough4me

The posts on Twitter about TW calling themselves lesbians say things like, surely lesbians use dildos, so why not accept a woman's penis?

They really don't understand that lesbians aren't looking for heterosexual sex. It's like they sincerely believe that lesbians are desperate for a penis on a women's body Hmm

Again ,note the total lack of interest in the lesbian's feelings, desires, attractions, as a person as opposed to a sex dispensing unit.

#servicehumansaremalfunctioningagain

Seriously. Whatever your sexuality, run a fucking mile from anyone who treats another person like this. They have a major problem and are not dating material.

Datun · 01/11/2021 13:18

It's a ridiculous thing to say.

If it's all about the dildo, then why aren't gay men dating women with dildos.

334bu · 01/11/2021 13:22

Thank you for the Helen Joyce clip.

andyoldlabour · 01/11/2021 13:36

RoyalCorgi

I used to read the Guardian and Indy, plus the Observer. Now I read the Times and skim the Mail. You can at least still make comments on the latter two, something which is no longer allowed on most Guardian and Indy articles.

Artichokeleaves · 01/11/2021 13:41

The absolute lack of social awareness, empathy, ability to think of the sexual partner as a person is really disturbing.

But then we have a poster on another thread right now saying along with stonewall that lesbians should just stop having a sexual orientation and provide sex to male people rather than rudely interrupt a male person's stated identity.

Very, very disturbed and distorted ideas on sex, relationships and even basic respect for others.

LaetitiaASD · 01/11/2021 14:08

@Datun

It's a ridiculous thing to say.

If it's all about the dildo, then why aren't gay men dating women with dildos.

Yep.

Pretty sure that there are many fundamental differences between a phallic object which may or may not contain a motor to make it vibrate, and a literal penis attached to a man.

I can imagine many scenarios where someone might be happy to introduce a phallic object into their sex life, but would never accept a literal penis, or, perhaps, they would accept a literal penis but only a particular one belonging to a particular man.

Equally I can imagine many scenarios where someone might be want a literal penis in their sex life, and feel that a phallic object which may or may not contain a motor to make it vibrate would not be a sufficient substitute.

Artichokeleaves · 01/11/2021 16:59

Just read this which I will add here as possibly helpful

Lowbridge cites a report published here in which: One woman reported being targeted in an online group. “I was told that homosexuality doesn’t exist and I owed it to my trans sisters to unlearn my ‘genital confusion’ so I can enjoy letting them penetrate me,” she wrote. *

Think about this.

  • lesbian, your sexuality and identity and sense of self and your own sex of attraction does not exist
  • you owe it to people born male to fix yourself to provide them with sex
  • you must let them penetrate you because they want to
  • if you try hard, you could learn to enjoy it (implication here that if a woman doesn't she has not tried hard enough)

You have got to be out of your mind to think this is in any way ok. This is appalling. This is misogyny gone mad. This is coercing unwilling women into permitting unwanted sex because male people want them to, and spinning every possible line to justify it. Homosexuality doesn't exist? Only because women not letting male people penetrate them is a boundary male people resent.

This is insane.

gordondangerfield.com/2021/10/28/what-do-you-believe-about-transwomen-take-the-tests/

FlyingOink · 01/11/2021 19:04

@Datun

It's a ridiculous thing to say.

If it's all about the dildo, then why aren't gay men dating women with dildos.

There are plenty of "gay transmen" on Tumblr and Tiktok giving out about this, and claiming their range of silicone cocks are superior to what a natal gay man has.

I'm not saying that what gay men face is the same as what we see lesbians facing, but it's there.

And the dildo question, whichever way round it is phrased, shows the sexual naivety of these people.

People are attracted to men or women. The whole man or the whole woman. We've had to fixate on genitals to stave off the bombardment of "but what ifs" concerning hair and clothes and shoulder size and hand size and blah blah blah. So we mention genitals.

But it isn't just genitals is it? Straight women don't go to gloryholes and interact with strange disembodied penises, it isn't common to female sexuality, which is a much more holistic affair, whether it is directed at men, women or both.
We've been made to focus on genitals as shorthand for the obvious and actual differences between the two sexes.

And then with genital surgery there's another whole raft of "but what ifs", again ignoring the initial "no".

A gay man fancies a man. A whole man, who looks like a man, smells, feels and moves like a man, and who has male genitalia. Likewise a lesbian fancies a whole woman. We've skirted around the issue because we try to avoid the "but what ifs". We've pretended that yes the shoulders are the same and no your hips don't show and it doesn't matter if you don't pass to be nice but nice doesn't cut it with these entitled people.

A lesbian fancies a whole woman and her genitals are an important part of the package, that can't be replicated or substituted. Why should they be? Have we run out of women, so we have to make our own?

Datun · 01/11/2021 19:17

Yes, I've seen the receipts from gay men FlyingOink. Awful.

Although, I think it's equally bad that women feel they need to do this, as it is for the men to whom they are speaking.

What is happened to our young, presumably heterosexual, women who feel they need to act in this way?

Although, superficially, it looks like the same as men targeting lesbians, personally, I don't think it is.

And yes, of course, it's about the entire person.

FlyingOink · 01/11/2021 19:22

What is happened to our young, presumably heterosexual, women who feel they need to act in this way?
Porn, fanfiction, anime.

Although, superficially, it looks like the same as men targeting lesbians, personally, I don't think it is.
Agreed, I'm just pointing out that it happens.

foxgoosefinch · 01/11/2021 19:24

@FlyingOink yes, it’s unfashionable to say it, but for example, I’m bi (though have lived as a lesbian for a large part of my life…) and I’m attracted to feminine women and masculine men. I can’t help it; it’s just how I am (and despite that I believe sexual orientation can be quite fluid). It’s not how everyone is. But it’s endlessly daft for TRAs and their allies to act like sexual attraction isn’t dependent on a whole package of genitals+person+social cues+that person’s whole being in the world.

In any case, I note that the “lesbians should examine their bigoted genital preferences” crowd are NEVER, and I mean never, saying to transwomen “why don’t you just work on being attracted to men, now that you’re women?” It’s always women’s - and specifically lesbian and bi women’s sexuality which is under erasure/question — never the sexuality of the transwomen themselves. That is considered very fixed and unquestioned.

Wildfart · 01/11/2021 20:09

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NecessaryScene · 01/11/2021 20:33

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Wildfart · 01/11/2021 20:35

She can really write!

FlyingOink · 01/11/2021 20:47

It’s always women’s - and specifically lesbian and bi women’s sexuality which is under erasure/question
Because support humans should always be available as a public resource

never the sexuality of the transwomen themselves. That is considered very fixed and unquestioned
I don't think this is actually true though. Straight men transition and form "lesbian polycules" with other former straight men who have transitioned. Crossdressing men who are married to women meet other men for surreptitious sex, to feel used, degraded and therefore more womanly. Lesbians who transition occasionally become "gay transmen" who are interested in men. (My theory is that testosterone does a number on their sex drive but I don't know)
I've seen various permutations, porn is a factor in lots of it, as is hookup culture, weird Internet subcultures and (sometimes) drugs.
There are a lot of transwomen out there into lots of weird fetishes, adult baby/nappy wearing seems common enough to comment on, for example.
Some people have decided mindless, indiscriminate hedonism is better than finding someone you like and are actually attracted to, so they continue to self-harm using sex as the weapon. I'd say the "pozzing" fraternity do the same thing, they use sex as self-harm.

I wouldn't go so far as to say all these angry abusive transactivist transwomen only have sex with natal women. They might prefer to, but in reality a lot of other stuff goes on.

Ultimately, single people who are happy with themselves might feel a bit lonely sometimes, they might even feel sorry for themselves from time to time, but this anger and entitlement and toxic, violent rage is indicative of people who are really not happy with themselves, who don't really feel worthy and who want to live a totally nihilistic, instant-gratification life, but who hate being reminded there are people uninterested in it.

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