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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

BBC cotton ceiling thread, number 2

397 replies

PurgatoryOfPotholes · 27/10/2021 13:33

Due to some people's fervent objections, here is the article with the mention of the questionnaire excised.

As you can see, the article stands without it.

part 1

Is a lesbian transphobic if she does not want to have sex with trans women? Some lesbians say they are increasingly being pressured and coerced into accepting trans women as partners - then shunned and even threatened for speaking out. Several have spoken to the BBC, along with trans women who are concerned about the issue too.

Warning: Story contains strong language

"I've had someone saying they would rather kill me than Hitler," says 24-year-old Jennie*.

"They said they would strangle me with a belt if they were in a room with me and Hitler. That was so bizarrely violent, just because I won't have sex with trans women."

Jennie is a lesbian woman. She says she is only sexually attracted to women who are biologically female and have vaginas. She therefore only has sex and relationships with women who are biologically female.

Jennie doesn't think this should be controversial, but not everyone agrees. She has been described as transphobic, a genital fetishist, a pervert and a "terf" - a trans exclusionary radical feminist.

"There's a common argument that they try and use that goes 'What if you met a woman in a bar and she's really beautiful and you got on really well and you went home and you discovered that she has a penis? Would you just not be interested?'" says Jennie, who lives in London and works in fashion.

"Yes, because even if someone seems attractive at first you can go off them. I just don't possess the capacity to be sexually attracted to people who are biologically male, regardless of how they identify."

I became aware of this particular issue after I wrote an article aboutsex, lies and legal consent.

Several people got in touch with me to say there was a "huge problem" for lesbians, who were being pressured to "accept the idea that a penis can be a female sex organ".

I knew this would be a hugely divisive subject, but I wanted to find out how widespread the issue was.

Ultimately, it has been difficult to determine the true scale of the problem because there has been little research on this topic - only one survey to my knowledge. However, those affected have told me the pressure comes from a minority of trans women, as well as activists who are not necessarily trans themselves.

They described being harassed and silenced if they tried to discuss the issue openly. I received online abuse myself when I tried to find interviewees using social media.

One of the lesbian women I spoke to, 24-year-old Amy*, told me she experienced verbal abuse from her own girlfriend, a bisexual woman who wanted them to have a threesome with a trans woman.

When Amy explained her reasons for not wanting to, her girlfriend became angry.

"The first thing she called me was transphobic," Amy said. "She immediately jumped to make me feel guilty about not wanting to sleep with someone."

She said the trans woman in question had not undergone genital surgery, so still had a penis.

"I know there is zero possibility for me to be attracted to this person," said Amy, who lives in the south west of England and works in a small print and design studio.

"I can hear their male vocal cords. I can see their male jawline. I know, under their clothes, there is male genitalia. These are physical realities, that, as a woman who likes women, you can't just ignore."

Amy said she would feel this way even if a trans woman had undergone genital surgery - which some opt for, while many don't.

Soon afterwards Amy and her girlfriend split up.

"I remember she was extremely shocked and angry, and claimed my views were extremist propaganda and inciting violence towards the trans community, as well as comparing me to far-right groups," she said.

Another lesbian woman, 26-year-old Chloe*, said she felt so pressured she ended up having penetrative sex with a trans woman at university after repeatedly explaining she was not interested.

They lived near each other in halls of residence. Chloe had been drinking alcohol and does not think she could have given proper consent.

"I felt very bad for hating every moment, because the idea is we are attracted to gender rather than sex, and I did not feel that, and I felt bad for feeling like that," she said.

Ashamed and embarrassed, she decided not to tell anyone.

"The language at the time was very much 'trans women are women, they are always women, lesbians should date them'. And I was like, that's the reason I rejected this person. Does that make me bad? Am I not going to be allowed to be in the LGBT community anymore? Am I going to face repercussions for that instead?' So I didn't actually tell anyone."

Hearing about experiences like these led one lesbian activist to begin researching the topic. Angela C. Wild is co-founder of Get The L Out, whose members believe the rights of lesbians are being ignored by much of the current LGBT movement.

She and her fellow activists have demonstrated at Pride marches in the UK, where they have faced opposition. Pride in London accused the group of "bigotry, ignorance and hate".

"Lesbians are still extremely scared to speak because they think they won't be believed, because the trans ideology is so silencing everywhere," she said.

"I thought I would be called a transphobe or that it would be wrong of me to turn down a trans woman who wanted to exchange nude pictures," one woman wrote. "Young women feel pressured to sleep with trans women 'to prove I am not a terf'."

One woman reported being targeted in an online group. "I was told that homosexuality doesn't exist and I owed it to my trans sisters to unlearn my 'genital confusion' so I can enjoy letting them penetrate me," she wrote.

One compared going on dates with trans women to so-called conversion therapy - the controversial practice of trying to change someone's sexual orientation.

"I knew I wasn't attracted to them but internalised the idea that it was because of my 'transmisogyny' and that if I dated them for long enough I could start to be attracted to them. It was DIY conversion therapy," she wrote.

Another reported a trans woman physically forcing her to have sex after they went on a date.

"[They] threatened to out me as a terf and risk my job if I refused to sleep with [them]," she wrote. "I was too young to argue and had been brainwashed by queer theory so [they were] a 'woman' even if every fibre of my being was screaming throughout so I agreed to go home with [them]. [They] used physical force when I changed my mind upon seeing [their] penis and raped me."

While welcomed by some in the LGBT community, Angela's report was described as transphobic by others.

"[People said] we are worse than rapists because we [supposedly] try to frame every trans woman as a rapist," said Angela.

"This is not the point. The point is that if it happens we need to speak about it. If it happens to one woman it's wrong. As it turns out it happens to more than one woman."

Trans YouTuber Rose of Dawn has discussed the issue on her channelin a video called "Is Not Dating Trans People 'Transphobic'?"

"This is something I've seen happen in real life to friends of mine. This was happening before I actually started my channel and it was one of the things that spurred it on," said Rose.

"What's happening is women who are attracted to biological females and female genitalia are finding themselves put in very awkward positions, where if for example on a dating website a trans woman approaches them and they say 'sorry I'm not into trans women', then they are labelled as transphobic."

Rose made the video in response to a series of tweets bytrans athlete Veronica Ivy, then known as Rachel McKinnon,whowrote about hypothetical scenarioswhere trans people are rejected, and argued that "genital preferences" are transphobic.

I asked Veronica Ivy if she would speak to me but she did not want to.

Rose believes views like this are "incredibly toxic". She believes the idea that dating preferences are transphobic is being pushed by radical trans activists and their "self-proclaimed allies", who have extreme views which don't reflect the views of trans women she knows in real life.

"Certainly from my own friends group, the trans women I'm friends with, almost all of them agree lesbians are free to exclude trans women from their dating pool," she said.

However, she believes even trans people are afraid to talk openly about this for fear of abuse.

"People like me receive quite a lot of abuse from trans activists and their allies," she said.

"The trans activist side is incredibly rabid against people who they see as stepping out of line."

Debbie Hayton, a science teacher who transitioned in 2012 andwrites about trans issues, worries some people transition without realising how hard it will be to form relationships.

Although there is currently little data on the sexual orientation of trans women, she believes most are female-attracted because they are biologically male and most males are attracted to women.

"So when they [trans women] are trying to find partners, when lesbian women say 'we want women', and heterosexual women say they want a heterosexual man, that leaves trans women isolated from relationships, and possibly feeling very let down by society, angry, upset and feeling that the world is out to get them," she said.

Debbie thinks it's fine if a lesbian woman does not want to date a trans woman, but is concerned some are being pressured to do so.

"The way that shaming is used is just horrific; it's emotional manipulation and warfare going on," she said.

"These women who want to form relationships with other biological women are feeling bad about that. How did we get here?"

Stonewall is the largest LGBT organisation in the UK and Europe. I asked the charity about these issues but it was unable to provide anyone for interview. However, in a statement, chief executive Nancy Kelley likened not wanting to date trans people to not wanting to date people of colour, fat people, or disabled people.

She said: "Sexuality is personal and something which is unique to each of us. There is no 'right' way to be a lesbian, and only we can know who we're attracted to.

"Nobody should ever be pressured into dating, or pressured into dating people they aren't attracted to. But if you find that when dating, you are writing off entire groups of people, like people of colour, fat people, disabled people or trans people, then it's worth considering how societal prejudices may have shaped your attractions.

"We know that prejudice is still common in the LGBT+ community, and it's important that we can talk about that openly and honestly."

OP posts:
Thread gallery
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Vanishun · 28/10/2021 11:59

Twitter and co. have been a huge part of the problem IMO. Tech companies in general actually. Young entitled men running the new creepy world order.

PurgatoryOfPotholes · 28/10/2021 12:03

@Blessex

Tell me this is a joke….
  1. Twitter were not auto finishing the #istandwithlesbians hashtag
  1. They were not doing a little précis upfront on the trending page (altho they did one for the cis with the t hashtag with far far fewer tweets)
  1. Now they ARE autocompleting it - but have done a typo!!! #istandwithleabians

Have Twitter been stonewalled?

It's amazing how often these typos happen...

Meanwhile.

extract
A transgender woman who works as an engineer at Twitter has been charged with raping her wife after they had filed for divorce.

Dana McCallum works as a senior Twitter engineer and is now facing five felony charges stemming from an incident that occurred the night after she served her wife of six years with divorce papers.

McCallum, whose legal name on the charging documents is Dana Contreras, was arrested on January 26 and charged with three counts of spousal rape, one count of false imprisonment and one count of domestic violence.

McCallum has been listed as one of the top ten most important LGBT people in tech and she has spoken at length about her transition after being born biologically male.

She and her wife, who has not been named due to the nature of the crime, had been married for more than six years.

Continues here: www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2602740/Transgender-female-Twitter-engineer-charged-raping-estranged-wife.html

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Datun · 28/10/2021 12:17

PurgatoryOfPotholes

Interestingly, although that story is only from 2013, hardly anyone in the comments gets it. They're utterly confused. Despite the article telling them the person is male who probably hasn't had genital surgery.

They are all assuming there is no penis.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 28/10/2021 12:39

Sharing this great piece of writing by anonymous lesbian commentator Sue Donym, who has done some other great writing on this issue, reposted on Graham Linehan's substack. I think it explains some of the cognitive dissonance around going along with the gaslighting:

You are frightened of realizing you are a fool. So too, is everyone around you. No one likes being played the fool, no one likes realizing they were sold a pack of lies as a naïve eighteen year old looking for other gay people. And no one plays you for a fool. And thus the dance continues, everyone one too frightened to admit that, perhaps, we are all fools, believing in something physically impossible, no different to the bible-banging megachurch attendee, with our own chants, our own magic words, ritual knowledge, and ability to be born again. We are smart. We’re liberal. We are on the right side of history. We couldn’t be believing in something that isn’t scientifically backed. We’re smarter than that. We’re not fools.

And when it finally gets too much, and you drift over to the cliff’s edge, the cliff that you can see the bottom of, the cliff you know you can’t come back from, you pull away. Because to go over it would to be to admit that you’ve been played the fool. No one likes that feeling, the shame, the embarrassment, the horror, the fear. What lies over that cliff is exile, a scarlet letter, fear and hatred and nasty women who just want trans women dead.

grahamlinehan.substack.com/p/the-cotton-ceiling-one-womans-story/comments

Sophoclesthefox · 28/10/2021 12:52

I’m back to shaking my head this morning about the utter outrageousness of accusing women of lying about sexual assault, coercion and rape, because it’s the “progressive” thing to do.

Unbelievable.

LobsterNapkin · 28/10/2021 13:03

[quote BloodinGutters]@LobsterNapkin

Why would the idea of enthusiastic consent be a problem? It’s the FRIES acronym- consent should be given freely, reversible, informed enthusiastic and specific.

Why would anyone have a problem with that?[/quote]
I'm 45 years old. I know my boundaries, and I have a good sense of why I make decisions. I can choose to have sex without being enthusiastic about it if that's what I decide makes sense.

I really don't need other do-gooders questioning my personal autonomy on that.

LobsterNapkin · 28/10/2021 13:08

@LoislovesStewie

Someone please explain how we have got to the ridiculous position where talking about 'a girl with a dick' doesn't cause offence/laughter/indignation or confusion? I just don't get it.
It's all about what premises you accept.

If you accept the idea that your anatomy is completely unrelated to being a man or women, or even male or female, all else follows.

You can logically argue anything if you begin from the right place.

Deliriumoftheendless · 28/10/2021 13:19

Now they ARE autocompleting it - but have done a typo!!! #istandwithleabians

Next up-

#istandwithlibyans
#istandwithliberians
#istandwithlibrarians
#wedontcareaboutlesbians

BloodinGutters · 28/10/2021 13:20

@LobsterNapkin

I’m not questioning why you do anything in your life. You said you really disliked the requirement of enthusiastic consent, in reply to a poster discussing it in relation to this thread. You didn’t specify you were talking just about your own life and it definitely doesn’t read like you were. The person you were replying to was clearly using it in general terms in relation to this topic, in relation to young lesbians being pressured. Not an individual personal example.

Fukuraptor · 28/10/2021 15:15

Logically it would be really odd if there weren't incidences of transwomen pressuring, coercing and indeed sexually assaulting and raping women and girls. Because if they didn't, they would be an exception to male violence against women and girls.

But people don't want to be reminded that transwomen are not female, because then we'd need to consider inconvenient things like safeguarding and respecting the single sex spaces.

That doesn't mean transwomen are more likely to do this than other males. They might even be less likely. If only academics were able to study these topics without receiving violent threats and attempts to defund them. Then we could have some nice robust research to settle the matter.

FlyingOink · 28/10/2021 15:34

@TheHoneyBadger

The whole framing of the discussion is so male. Having to justify not wanting to have sex with someone - who makes people do that? Being afraid to say no and having to come up with elaborate justifications - which sex experiences that? Which sex has proven to have difficulty with the simple concept that no means no and no debate thank you?

It just goes to prove that nothing really changes because of a change of costume and name.

Exactly!
FlyingOink · 28/10/2021 15:46

Stonewall’s position is quite clear. There’s no money to be made promoting lesbian rights.

Oh and this, definitely

FlyingOink · 28/10/2021 16:01

Stonewall's "Overcoming the Cotton Ceiling" is just horrific.

Wasn't this Planned Parenthood in Toronto? I'm sure it wasn't Stonewall, although they probably agree with the premise, given Kelley's comments.

Also her comments weren't in direct response to the article, they were made earlier. Still pretty damning, but not a direct response.

LaetitiaASD · 28/10/2021 16:05

@TheHoneyBadger @FlyingOink

I think there are two diffferent things.

A discussion on the internet where things are talked about in a somewhat abstract and hypothetical way.

Real life where things happen in a different and more natural way.

In the context of a date no reason is needed for rejection, and it's about being polite and trying to stay safe. In the context of a debate it makes sense to make it clear that trans women are being rejected because they are male and lesbians don't fancy men.

Sophoclesthefox · 28/10/2021 16:06

That doesn't mean transwomen are more likely to do this than other males. They might even be less likely. If only academics were able to study these topics without receiving violent threats and attempts to defund them. Then we could have some nice robust research to settle the matter

I was thinking about this earlier- what a rebuttal of the article would look like. if people truly believed that it was confected, overblown, dangerous propaganda, then the best way to counteract that would be to disprove it using facts, evidence, logic. You disprove propaganda by providing a factual takedown.

That hasn’t happened. What we got instead was “women lie about rape”, “only a bigot would believe this”, “it’s not a problem because it’s never happened to me”, “shut up!” Etc etc.

TheHoneyBadger · 28/10/2021 16:15

Because the facts are appalling. Everyone is pretending women haven't been raped in prison already for example. When we said it would lead this way we were called hysterical and ridiculous, even after the events expected have happened there's a bizarre silence about them and acting like it's still hysterical and silly concerns even though it's already happening.

You can't argue back with facts because there are the stats on what percentage of men in prison claiming to be women are convicted sex criminals and how that compares to the male prison population as a whole.

None of the facts one can manage to extract from the silence and denial work in their favour. So we have to ignore facts and have pure ideology and NO DEBATE. It will topple obviously but god it has taken a long time and the level of violent misogynistic abuse women have been subjected to just for trying to discuss these things or question the religion is insane and reflects terribly on our society that everyone just looked the other way.

FlyingOink · 28/10/2021 16:25

Because the facts are appalling. Everyone is pretending women haven't been raped in prison already for example. When we said it would lead this way we were called hysterical and ridiculous, even after the events expected have happened there's a bizarre silence about them and acting like it's still hysterical and silly concerns even though it's already happening.

I find this the most frustrating aspect of the whole debate. Facts are being dismissed because they aren't convenient. Women are being dismissed because our opinions and our experiences aren't convenient. The truth isn't convenient.

MistandMud · 28/10/2021 16:26

Everyone is pretending women haven't been raped in prison already for example.

In the interests of accuracy, is this known to have happened? I know sexual assaults by convicted rapists have happened. I know women in prison fear this. I know US prisons have been contemplating handing out contraceptive measures. It's all shit enough already. But have there been known cases of rape?

TheHoneyBadger · 28/10/2021 16:39

There are women who say they have been raped by transgender inmates but that it has been covered up. I also note that terms like sexual assaults, sexual attacks and rape have started to be used fairly loosely and interchangeably in some news outlets reporting around these issues.

Note they are also giving out condoms to women prisoners in parts of America now. How meaningful is consent when you are a vulnerable prisoner locked up with a man is a question worth pondering also. Also given how hard it is for your average citizen to get an allegation of rape taken seriously let alone make it to court how much chance would female prisoners have?

Any sexual violence resulting from housing men in women's prison is too much imo.

PurgatoryOfPotholes · 28/10/2021 16:41

@MistandMud

Everyone is pretending women haven't been raped in prison already for example.

In the interests of accuracy, is this known to have happened? I know sexual assaults by convicted rapists have happened. I know women in prison fear this. I know US prisons have been contemplating handing out contraceptive measures. It's all shit enough already. But have there been known cases of rape?

US: mynorthwest.com/2666243/doc-washington-correctional-center-women-men-transfer/

In the UK, the judicial review was brought by a woman raped in prison: www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWHC/Admin/2021/1746.html

OP posts:
MistandMud · 28/10/2021 16:42

Agreed that any sexual assault is one too many; just want to be cautious about only repeating things I can back up.

TheHoneyBadger · 28/10/2021 16:43

Bear in mind also then that the definition of rape is different in different legal jurisdictions. US and UK define it very differently.

vivariumvivariumsvivaria · 28/10/2021 16:56

If I was housed in a cell with a person who was faster, bigger, stronger than me, with history of violence, and that person sexually assaulted me, and I was stuck in that setting with that person... I don't suppose I'd make a complaint about it either.

Flight, flight, freeze, fawn, right? I'd fawn. And I bet most women in that situation would too.

Vanishun · 28/10/2021 18:00

@vivariumvivariumsvivaria

If I was housed in a cell with a person who was faster, bigger, stronger than me, with history of violence, and that person sexually assaulted me, and I was stuck in that setting with that person... I don't suppose I'd make a complaint about it either.

Flight, flight, freeze, fawn, right? I'd fawn. And I bet most women in that situation would too.

It doesn't bear thinking about. It would be beyond terrifying. We are locking rapists up with victims, all in the name of being kind to the rapists.

Isn't there a stat like a huge proportion of women in prison are there for things like TV license evasion?

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