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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

BBC cotton ceiling thread, number 2

397 replies

PurgatoryOfPotholes · 27/10/2021 13:33

Due to some people's fervent objections, here is the article with the mention of the questionnaire excised.

As you can see, the article stands without it.

part 1

Is a lesbian transphobic if she does not want to have sex with trans women? Some lesbians say they are increasingly being pressured and coerced into accepting trans women as partners - then shunned and even threatened for speaking out. Several have spoken to the BBC, along with trans women who are concerned about the issue too.

Warning: Story contains strong language

"I've had someone saying they would rather kill me than Hitler," says 24-year-old Jennie*.

"They said they would strangle me with a belt if they were in a room with me and Hitler. That was so bizarrely violent, just because I won't have sex with trans women."

Jennie is a lesbian woman. She says she is only sexually attracted to women who are biologically female and have vaginas. She therefore only has sex and relationships with women who are biologically female.

Jennie doesn't think this should be controversial, but not everyone agrees. She has been described as transphobic, a genital fetishist, a pervert and a "terf" - a trans exclusionary radical feminist.

"There's a common argument that they try and use that goes 'What if you met a woman in a bar and she's really beautiful and you got on really well and you went home and you discovered that she has a penis? Would you just not be interested?'" says Jennie, who lives in London and works in fashion.

"Yes, because even if someone seems attractive at first you can go off them. I just don't possess the capacity to be sexually attracted to people who are biologically male, regardless of how they identify."

I became aware of this particular issue after I wrote an article aboutsex, lies and legal consent.

Several people got in touch with me to say there was a "huge problem" for lesbians, who were being pressured to "accept the idea that a penis can be a female sex organ".

I knew this would be a hugely divisive subject, but I wanted to find out how widespread the issue was.

Ultimately, it has been difficult to determine the true scale of the problem because there has been little research on this topic - only one survey to my knowledge. However, those affected have told me the pressure comes from a minority of trans women, as well as activists who are not necessarily trans themselves.

They described being harassed and silenced if they tried to discuss the issue openly. I received online abuse myself when I tried to find interviewees using social media.

One of the lesbian women I spoke to, 24-year-old Amy*, told me she experienced verbal abuse from her own girlfriend, a bisexual woman who wanted them to have a threesome with a trans woman.

When Amy explained her reasons for not wanting to, her girlfriend became angry.

"The first thing she called me was transphobic," Amy said. "She immediately jumped to make me feel guilty about not wanting to sleep with someone."

She said the trans woman in question had not undergone genital surgery, so still had a penis.

"I know there is zero possibility for me to be attracted to this person," said Amy, who lives in the south west of England and works in a small print and design studio.

"I can hear their male vocal cords. I can see their male jawline. I know, under their clothes, there is male genitalia. These are physical realities, that, as a woman who likes women, you can't just ignore."

Amy said she would feel this way even if a trans woman had undergone genital surgery - which some opt for, while many don't.

Soon afterwards Amy and her girlfriend split up.

"I remember she was extremely shocked and angry, and claimed my views were extremist propaganda and inciting violence towards the trans community, as well as comparing me to far-right groups," she said.

Another lesbian woman, 26-year-old Chloe*, said she felt so pressured she ended up having penetrative sex with a trans woman at university after repeatedly explaining she was not interested.

They lived near each other in halls of residence. Chloe had been drinking alcohol and does not think she could have given proper consent.

"I felt very bad for hating every moment, because the idea is we are attracted to gender rather than sex, and I did not feel that, and I felt bad for feeling like that," she said.

Ashamed and embarrassed, she decided not to tell anyone.

"The language at the time was very much 'trans women are women, they are always women, lesbians should date them'. And I was like, that's the reason I rejected this person. Does that make me bad? Am I not going to be allowed to be in the LGBT community anymore? Am I going to face repercussions for that instead?' So I didn't actually tell anyone."

Hearing about experiences like these led one lesbian activist to begin researching the topic. Angela C. Wild is co-founder of Get The L Out, whose members believe the rights of lesbians are being ignored by much of the current LGBT movement.

She and her fellow activists have demonstrated at Pride marches in the UK, where they have faced opposition. Pride in London accused the group of "bigotry, ignorance and hate".

"Lesbians are still extremely scared to speak because they think they won't be believed, because the trans ideology is so silencing everywhere," she said.

"I thought I would be called a transphobe or that it would be wrong of me to turn down a trans woman who wanted to exchange nude pictures," one woman wrote. "Young women feel pressured to sleep with trans women 'to prove I am not a terf'."

One woman reported being targeted in an online group. "I was told that homosexuality doesn't exist and I owed it to my trans sisters to unlearn my 'genital confusion' so I can enjoy letting them penetrate me," she wrote.

One compared going on dates with trans women to so-called conversion therapy - the controversial practice of trying to change someone's sexual orientation.

"I knew I wasn't attracted to them but internalised the idea that it was because of my 'transmisogyny' and that if I dated them for long enough I could start to be attracted to them. It was DIY conversion therapy," she wrote.

Another reported a trans woman physically forcing her to have sex after they went on a date.

"[They] threatened to out me as a terf and risk my job if I refused to sleep with [them]," she wrote. "I was too young to argue and had been brainwashed by queer theory so [they were] a 'woman' even if every fibre of my being was screaming throughout so I agreed to go home with [them]. [They] used physical force when I changed my mind upon seeing [their] penis and raped me."

While welcomed by some in the LGBT community, Angela's report was described as transphobic by others.

"[People said] we are worse than rapists because we [supposedly] try to frame every trans woman as a rapist," said Angela.

"This is not the point. The point is that if it happens we need to speak about it. If it happens to one woman it's wrong. As it turns out it happens to more than one woman."

Trans YouTuber Rose of Dawn has discussed the issue on her channelin a video called "Is Not Dating Trans People 'Transphobic'?"

"This is something I've seen happen in real life to friends of mine. This was happening before I actually started my channel and it was one of the things that spurred it on," said Rose.

"What's happening is women who are attracted to biological females and female genitalia are finding themselves put in very awkward positions, where if for example on a dating website a trans woman approaches them and they say 'sorry I'm not into trans women', then they are labelled as transphobic."

Rose made the video in response to a series of tweets bytrans athlete Veronica Ivy, then known as Rachel McKinnon,whowrote about hypothetical scenarioswhere trans people are rejected, and argued that "genital preferences" are transphobic.

I asked Veronica Ivy if she would speak to me but she did not want to.

Rose believes views like this are "incredibly toxic". She believes the idea that dating preferences are transphobic is being pushed by radical trans activists and their "self-proclaimed allies", who have extreme views which don't reflect the views of trans women she knows in real life.

"Certainly from my own friends group, the trans women I'm friends with, almost all of them agree lesbians are free to exclude trans women from their dating pool," she said.

However, she believes even trans people are afraid to talk openly about this for fear of abuse.

"People like me receive quite a lot of abuse from trans activists and their allies," she said.

"The trans activist side is incredibly rabid against people who they see as stepping out of line."

Debbie Hayton, a science teacher who transitioned in 2012 andwrites about trans issues, worries some people transition without realising how hard it will be to form relationships.

Although there is currently little data on the sexual orientation of trans women, she believes most are female-attracted because they are biologically male and most males are attracted to women.

"So when they [trans women] are trying to find partners, when lesbian women say 'we want women', and heterosexual women say they want a heterosexual man, that leaves trans women isolated from relationships, and possibly feeling very let down by society, angry, upset and feeling that the world is out to get them," she said.

Debbie thinks it's fine if a lesbian woman does not want to date a trans woman, but is concerned some are being pressured to do so.

"The way that shaming is used is just horrific; it's emotional manipulation and warfare going on," she said.

"These women who want to form relationships with other biological women are feeling bad about that. How did we get here?"

Stonewall is the largest LGBT organisation in the UK and Europe. I asked the charity about these issues but it was unable to provide anyone for interview. However, in a statement, chief executive Nancy Kelley likened not wanting to date trans people to not wanting to date people of colour, fat people, or disabled people.

She said: "Sexuality is personal and something which is unique to each of us. There is no 'right' way to be a lesbian, and only we can know who we're attracted to.

"Nobody should ever be pressured into dating, or pressured into dating people they aren't attracted to. But if you find that when dating, you are writing off entire groups of people, like people of colour, fat people, disabled people or trans people, then it's worth considering how societal prejudices may have shaped your attractions.

"We know that prejudice is still common in the LGBT+ community, and it's important that we can talk about that openly and honestly."

OP posts:
Thread gallery
9
Lovelyricepudding · 27/10/2021 14:46

If I were dating then I would rule put transwomen because I would not want to be with someone who lies and claims my sex as an identity, who is undermining my rights, who promotes regressive sex stereotypes....

CruellaDeVilla · 27/10/2021 14:50

@Realityisreal

My daughter is a lesbian and suffers greatly with anxiety, she has friends who are trans and is very supportive of them, she also contacted Stonewall when at school (she's at university now) to help educate staff on Trans issues. I'm very concerned, given her very nervous and kind nature that she could easily be coerced if someone suggested she was a transphobe if she didn't sleep with/ have a relationship with them, especially now that Stonewall appears to say that her sexual preference is down to 'social prejudice' I have asked her what she would do if she was getting intimate with a partner and they had a penis which she hadn't expected and didn't want, she said she'd rehearsed a response and would say something akin to 'No thank you.' It's sad that I felt the need for the conversation, and sad that she already rehearsed a response to the scenario.
That is heartbreaking, how the fuck did we get here?
Kdubs1981 · 27/10/2021 14:53

[quote Realityisreal]@LaetitiaASD
People have the right to refuse to date anyone and everyone.[/quote]
This. It's consent to sex. No is just a simple No. there is no requirement to justify your lack of consent

VladmirsPoutine · 27/10/2021 14:54

@Helleofabore

"Nobody should ever be pressured into dating, or pressured into dating people they aren't attracted to. But if you find that when dating, you are writing off entire groups of people, like people of colour, fat people, disabled people or trans people, then it's worth considering how societal prejudices may have shaped your attractions.

Chilling.

Every time I read it.

@Helleofabore Although this isn't the point of the discussion what Ash said in this quote isn't actually at all chilling. Preferences aren't formed in a vacuum and can often times be heavily influenced by societal pressures.
Beowulfa · 27/10/2021 14:58

The only thing the otherwise excellent BBC article didn't cover was dating apps (mentioned in the follow-up Daily Mail story linked above).

I would like to see a journalist sign up to every available lesbian dating app and quantify the number of obvious males listed, and document the responses to a profile stating that you're a biological woman seeking biological women.

AssassinatedBeauty · 27/10/2021 14:58

It is chilling, as the implication is that same sex attraction is simply a preference (even a prejudice!) and can be changed by working hard enough. How can you not see that?

aliasundercover · 27/10/2021 14:59

VladimirsPoutine there, telling a woman not to worry that she is being pressured into sex. Don’t worry Hellofabore, it’s not at all chilling.

Vanishun · 27/10/2021 15:00

Lesbians are not lesbians because of "societal pressures"!

It's like we've gone back in time!

Vanishun · 27/10/2021 15:01

And actually it is the goddamn heart of the discussion: Stonewall (Stonewall!!!) saying that lesbianism doesn't really exist and women should just rethink their preferences to accept cocks. Stonewall!

Thefartingsofaofdenmarkstreet · 27/10/2021 15:03

@Helleofabore Although this isn't the point of the discussion what Ash said in this quote isn't actually at all chilling. Preferences aren't formed in a vacuum and can often times be heavily influenced by societal pressures.

Ash didn't say that, Nancy Kelley did?

And what she is saying is that if you want to exclude people from your dating pool based on their biological sex (ie. Trans people) then that is prejudiced and a preference that could have been shaped by society. Isn't that what homophobes have said all along? That sexual orientation is a 'choice' that can be changed?

Same sex attraction and sexual orientation is a protected characteristic in the Equality Act.

VladmirsPoutine · 27/10/2021 15:05

@aliasundercover

VladimirsPoutine there, telling a woman not to worry that she is being pressured into sex. Don’t worry Hellofabore, it’s not at all chilling.
No, that's why I said although not the point of the discussion because I am aware that compelling women, specifically lesbians, to have sex with a trans woman is coercive and thus rape. My point was that our attraction to others does hinge on societal pressures to varying extents. It's not a controversial point.
Deliriumoftheendless · 27/10/2021 15:05

“ But if you find that when dating, you are writing off entire groups of people, like people of colour, fat people, disabled people or trans people, then it's worth considering how societal prejudices may have shaped your attractions.”

How does an organisation set up to protect gays and lesbians square the statement “writing off entire groups of people” with homosexuality?

Because I’m pretty sure in the past they fought to allow gay people to exclude the opposite sex from their dating pool.

PatsArrow · 27/10/2021 15:06

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk guidelines.

MinervaBoudicca · 27/10/2021 15:06

The message from so many seems to be: shut up, lesbians and other women who’ve been abused/coerced by transwomen! You’re spoiling our feel good rainbow party and we need to keep quiet about this abuse for the sake of the community

This is similar to the Catholic Church when confronted with priests abusing their power.

Also in terms of the denial going on, it’s reminiscent of how many rushed to defend Kids Company when it came under scrutiny for malpractice as a charity.
.

Sophoclesthefox · 27/10/2021 15:06

It really does take a frightening level of cognitive dissonance to say

“Of course nobody should be pressured or coerced to sleep with anybody”.

and then follow that with

“Not wanting to sleep with people who you don’t believe to be part of your orientation does make you just like a racist, though, and you really ought to reflect on whether A Bigot is the kind of person you want to be”.

The second statement is the coercion!

And it’s coming from the head of Stonewall.

One of the reasons that Stonewall was set up was to challenge the notion set forth in Clause 28, which was that is it possible to educate someone into a sexual orientation that they don’t naturally have (the panic in this case that children would be “educated” into being gay). They spent a lot of time, money and effort into increasing the understanding of sexual orientation as being something fundamental, inbuilt, broadly unchanging, and separate from sexual preferences.

A few decades down the line, they appear to have horseshoed round to suggesting that people can, in fact, be educated or educate themselves into a sexual orientation that they don’t naturally have. More than that, they seem now to have forgotten the work on increasing acceptance of sexual orientation, and have largely abandoned it in favour of a belief in adaptable, socially formed sexual preferences. And the focus is massively disproportionately on lesbians.

It’s astonishing.

Datun · 27/10/2021 15:07

@Beowulfa

The only thing the otherwise excellent BBC article didn't cover was dating apps (mentioned in the follow-up Daily Mail story linked above).

I would like to see a journalist sign up to every available lesbian dating app and quantify the number of obvious males listed, and document the responses to a profile stating that you're a biological woman seeking biological women.

Me too. The entire premise could be verified in a heartbeat.
VladmirsPoutine · 27/10/2021 15:09

@Thefartingsofaofdenmarkstreet Ash made a similar comment on Twitter wrt preferences that's what I was referring to based on that quote. I don't think you can 'choose' your sexuality, as someone on the last thread said if it was possible she wouldn't date men.

FindTheTruth · 27/10/2021 15:11

This story shows the homophobia that student lesbians are facing. Extract:

"I meet with a charity group. They have this young woman on staff who declares herself ‘non-binary’ and uses ‘they/them’ pronouns. She does not strike me as gay, and her entire purview of ‘LGBT’ seems to forget the first three letters. She assumes that I am a trans man. When I tell her I am a lesbian, she asks ‘are you sure? Maybe you’ll change your mind’. She then starts talking to me about her boyfriend."

"I wonder why this straight girl with dyed hair is telling me what to do on gay issues. What gives her the right?"

suedonym.substack.com/p/played-the-fool

Thefartingsofaofdenmarkstreet · 27/10/2021 15:11

Sexual orientation based on biological sex is a protected characteristic in the Equality Act. Sexual preference based on race is not.

Ash Sarkar is comparing lesbians not wanting to sleep with transwomen (ie. Adult humans of the opposite sex to themselves) to people not wanting to sleep with people of colour.

It is not the same thing and it's totally homophobic to suggest that it is.

logsonlogsoff · 27/10/2021 15:14

‘ As I've said before, lesbians are not robots filing down another line of robots with a binary code for acceptance or rejection.

We make rich, elaborate choices about who we want to date, and for some of those choices include translesbians, and they have been good choices resulting in happy relationships.

One lesbian's choice to include or exclude certain people says nothing about another lesbian's choices.’

Yup!
I once got into a massive argument with a straight, GC friend who wanted to talk to me about the cotton ceiling ( which I hadn’t even HEARD of at the time- she got it off Twitter) because she was massively pissed off when I told her that it wasn’t a thing, trans women weren’t trying to force lesbian to have sex with them despite what she’d heard from trans activists or GC activists on SM.
She was desperate to ‘protect’ me for something I didn’t need protecting from, and outraged that I wasn’t outraged.
It was really bizarre. I pointed out that some lesbians do have relationships with trans people, in my experience, and that it was none of my or her business. But what do I know?. I’ve only been a lesbian and active in LGBT+ life,
Communities and scenes for 35 years. Whereas friend has read all the books, while living MC, straight life with her DH.

LaetitiaASD · 27/10/2021 15:16

@bordersroaming

Um

Well not speaking for bisexuals

If as a bisexual you are also someone who disputes the significance of gender identity then I guess you would be highly unlikely to be able to respect a transperson enough to want a relationship

Which is more like asking if an atheist would date a born again Christian

Possible clearly but you wouldn't accuse one or other of hateful hideous "isms" , you'd expect their choices to be respected

Interesting. I don't have an answer.

As an atheist I would find it highly unlikely that I would date a born again christian - I probably couldn't respect them in all honesty, let alone share a world view... but I wouldn't say it was impossible, whereas I would say it is impossible that I would date outside of my sexual orientation!

So yeah, on a dating app I'd swipe the christian.... but then again if there were few other options, he looked good and we had a few things in common then maybe a date could happen, you never know.

AssassinatedBeauty · 27/10/2021 15:19

@logsonlogsoff you realise that is simply a longwinded way of saying that you don't believe these accounts because you haven't experienced it yourself. Is that really what you're saying here??

BloodinGutters · 27/10/2021 15:20

@logsonlogsoff

‘ As I've said before, lesbians are not robots filing down another line of robots with a binary code for acceptance or rejection.

We make rich, elaborate choices about who we want to date, and for some of those choices include translesbians, and they have been good choices resulting in happy relationships.

One lesbian's choice to include or exclude certain people says nothing about another lesbian's choices.’

Yup!
I once got into a massive argument with a straight, GC friend who wanted to talk to me about the cotton ceiling ( which I hadn’t even HEARD of at the time- she got it off Twitter) because she was massively pissed off when I told her that it wasn’t a thing, trans women weren’t trying to force lesbian to have sex with them despite what she’d heard from trans activists or GC activists on SM.
She was desperate to ‘protect’ me for something I didn’t need protecting from, and outraged that I wasn’t outraged.
It was really bizarre. I pointed out that some lesbians do have relationships with trans people, in my experience, and that it was none of my or her business. But what do I know?. I’ve only been a lesbian and active in LGBT+ life,
Communities and scenes for 35 years. Whereas friend has read all the books, while living MC, straight life with her DH.

It wasn’t a thing, yet stonewall were teaching seminars on it with cotton ceiling in the title way back when?
CharlieParley · 27/10/2021 15:23

Although this isn't the point of the discussion what Ash said in this quote isn't actually at all chilling. Preferences aren't formed in a vacuum and can often times be heavily influenced by societal pressures

This is the Stonewall response to the question whether it is acceptable for a same-sex attracted female to exclude all males from her dating pool, including those who identify as trans. There is no rejection here of the hostility the interviewees reported nor a condemnation of the sexual violence they disclosed. That alone would make this an unacceptable response, because it treats the issue of sexual coercion within the LGBT community like a theoretical concept that has had no impact on anyone.

The quote itself conflates preferences about the appearance of one's sexual partner with sexual orientation itself. These two things are not the same. Therefore doubly unacceptable coming from a (formerly) gay and lesbian rights organisation.

Now having been a fascinated observer to a born this way vs made this way debate amongst lesbians, I am aware that there is some debate amongst lesbians around how sexual orientation is formed. However, the discussion didn't centre so much on lesbians not being born homosexual but shaped to be by the circumstances of their lives and the society they live in, instead it focused much more on lesbians being born homosexual but shaped not to be by the circumstances of their lives and the society they live in. There is a hypothesis that this explains or is at least one of the reasons why the percentage of female homosexuals is consistently so much lower than the percentage of male homosexuals.

In the context of this quote then, and on this particular issue, it might be acceptable to ask whether there is a percentage of women out there who are homosexual but have been shaped by societal pressure and prejudice to be heterosexual. However, given the context is the sexual coercion of exclusively same-sex attracted females by males from the trans community, it is not acceptable to ask whether the lesbians out there who reject those males do so not because they are homosexual but only because of societal pressure and prejudice.

So that's three strong reasons why that statement is indeed chilling. It doesn't condemn abuse, it misrepresents sexual orientation and it suggests being an exclusively same-sex attracted to the exclusion of all males, regardless of their identity, is a prejudiced preference that could and should be unlearned.

LaetitiaASD · 27/10/2021 15:25

[quote Realityisreal]@LaetitiaASD
People have the right to refuse to date anyone and everyone.[/quote]
No, I get that 100%. But if I go round saying that I won't date trans people because they all smell and have tiny brains then that's transphobic. it is simultaneously a completely acceptable dating choice and transphobic.

I have not problem whatsoever with a bisexual person refusing to date trans people for whatever reason... but that doesn't mean it's not transphobic. (Neither does it make it transphobic, to be clear!)