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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

BBC cotton ceiling thread, number 2

397 replies

PurgatoryOfPotholes · 27/10/2021 13:33

Due to some people's fervent objections, here is the article with the mention of the questionnaire excised.

As you can see, the article stands without it.

part 1

Is a lesbian transphobic if she does not want to have sex with trans women? Some lesbians say they are increasingly being pressured and coerced into accepting trans women as partners - then shunned and even threatened for speaking out. Several have spoken to the BBC, along with trans women who are concerned about the issue too.

Warning: Story contains strong language

"I've had someone saying they would rather kill me than Hitler," says 24-year-old Jennie*.

"They said they would strangle me with a belt if they were in a room with me and Hitler. That was so bizarrely violent, just because I won't have sex with trans women."

Jennie is a lesbian woman. She says she is only sexually attracted to women who are biologically female and have vaginas. She therefore only has sex and relationships with women who are biologically female.

Jennie doesn't think this should be controversial, but not everyone agrees. She has been described as transphobic, a genital fetishist, a pervert and a "terf" - a trans exclusionary radical feminist.

"There's a common argument that they try and use that goes 'What if you met a woman in a bar and she's really beautiful and you got on really well and you went home and you discovered that she has a penis? Would you just not be interested?'" says Jennie, who lives in London and works in fashion.

"Yes, because even if someone seems attractive at first you can go off them. I just don't possess the capacity to be sexually attracted to people who are biologically male, regardless of how they identify."

I became aware of this particular issue after I wrote an article aboutsex, lies and legal consent.

Several people got in touch with me to say there was a "huge problem" for lesbians, who were being pressured to "accept the idea that a penis can be a female sex organ".

I knew this would be a hugely divisive subject, but I wanted to find out how widespread the issue was.

Ultimately, it has been difficult to determine the true scale of the problem because there has been little research on this topic - only one survey to my knowledge. However, those affected have told me the pressure comes from a minority of trans women, as well as activists who are not necessarily trans themselves.

They described being harassed and silenced if they tried to discuss the issue openly. I received online abuse myself when I tried to find interviewees using social media.

One of the lesbian women I spoke to, 24-year-old Amy*, told me she experienced verbal abuse from her own girlfriend, a bisexual woman who wanted them to have a threesome with a trans woman.

When Amy explained her reasons for not wanting to, her girlfriend became angry.

"The first thing she called me was transphobic," Amy said. "She immediately jumped to make me feel guilty about not wanting to sleep with someone."

She said the trans woman in question had not undergone genital surgery, so still had a penis.

"I know there is zero possibility for me to be attracted to this person," said Amy, who lives in the south west of England and works in a small print and design studio.

"I can hear their male vocal cords. I can see their male jawline. I know, under their clothes, there is male genitalia. These are physical realities, that, as a woman who likes women, you can't just ignore."

Amy said she would feel this way even if a trans woman had undergone genital surgery - which some opt for, while many don't.

Soon afterwards Amy and her girlfriend split up.

"I remember she was extremely shocked and angry, and claimed my views were extremist propaganda and inciting violence towards the trans community, as well as comparing me to far-right groups," she said.

Another lesbian woman, 26-year-old Chloe*, said she felt so pressured she ended up having penetrative sex with a trans woman at university after repeatedly explaining she was not interested.

They lived near each other in halls of residence. Chloe had been drinking alcohol and does not think she could have given proper consent.

"I felt very bad for hating every moment, because the idea is we are attracted to gender rather than sex, and I did not feel that, and I felt bad for feeling like that," she said.

Ashamed and embarrassed, she decided not to tell anyone.

"The language at the time was very much 'trans women are women, they are always women, lesbians should date them'. And I was like, that's the reason I rejected this person. Does that make me bad? Am I not going to be allowed to be in the LGBT community anymore? Am I going to face repercussions for that instead?' So I didn't actually tell anyone."

Hearing about experiences like these led one lesbian activist to begin researching the topic. Angela C. Wild is co-founder of Get The L Out, whose members believe the rights of lesbians are being ignored by much of the current LGBT movement.

She and her fellow activists have demonstrated at Pride marches in the UK, where they have faced opposition. Pride in London accused the group of "bigotry, ignorance and hate".

"Lesbians are still extremely scared to speak because they think they won't be believed, because the trans ideology is so silencing everywhere," she said.

"I thought I would be called a transphobe or that it would be wrong of me to turn down a trans woman who wanted to exchange nude pictures," one woman wrote. "Young women feel pressured to sleep with trans women 'to prove I am not a terf'."

One woman reported being targeted in an online group. "I was told that homosexuality doesn't exist and I owed it to my trans sisters to unlearn my 'genital confusion' so I can enjoy letting them penetrate me," she wrote.

One compared going on dates with trans women to so-called conversion therapy - the controversial practice of trying to change someone's sexual orientation.

"I knew I wasn't attracted to them but internalised the idea that it was because of my 'transmisogyny' and that if I dated them for long enough I could start to be attracted to them. It was DIY conversion therapy," she wrote.

Another reported a trans woman physically forcing her to have sex after they went on a date.

"[They] threatened to out me as a terf and risk my job if I refused to sleep with [them]," she wrote. "I was too young to argue and had been brainwashed by queer theory so [they were] a 'woman' even if every fibre of my being was screaming throughout so I agreed to go home with [them]. [They] used physical force when I changed my mind upon seeing [their] penis and raped me."

While welcomed by some in the LGBT community, Angela's report was described as transphobic by others.

"[People said] we are worse than rapists because we [supposedly] try to frame every trans woman as a rapist," said Angela.

"This is not the point. The point is that if it happens we need to speak about it. If it happens to one woman it's wrong. As it turns out it happens to more than one woman."

Trans YouTuber Rose of Dawn has discussed the issue on her channelin a video called "Is Not Dating Trans People 'Transphobic'?"

"This is something I've seen happen in real life to friends of mine. This was happening before I actually started my channel and it was one of the things that spurred it on," said Rose.

"What's happening is women who are attracted to biological females and female genitalia are finding themselves put in very awkward positions, where if for example on a dating website a trans woman approaches them and they say 'sorry I'm not into trans women', then they are labelled as transphobic."

Rose made the video in response to a series of tweets bytrans athlete Veronica Ivy, then known as Rachel McKinnon,whowrote about hypothetical scenarioswhere trans people are rejected, and argued that "genital preferences" are transphobic.

I asked Veronica Ivy if she would speak to me but she did not want to.

Rose believes views like this are "incredibly toxic". She believes the idea that dating preferences are transphobic is being pushed by radical trans activists and their "self-proclaimed allies", who have extreme views which don't reflect the views of trans women she knows in real life.

"Certainly from my own friends group, the trans women I'm friends with, almost all of them agree lesbians are free to exclude trans women from their dating pool," she said.

However, she believes even trans people are afraid to talk openly about this for fear of abuse.

"People like me receive quite a lot of abuse from trans activists and their allies," she said.

"The trans activist side is incredibly rabid against people who they see as stepping out of line."

Debbie Hayton, a science teacher who transitioned in 2012 andwrites about trans issues, worries some people transition without realising how hard it will be to form relationships.

Although there is currently little data on the sexual orientation of trans women, she believes most are female-attracted because they are biologically male and most males are attracted to women.

"So when they [trans women] are trying to find partners, when lesbian women say 'we want women', and heterosexual women say they want a heterosexual man, that leaves trans women isolated from relationships, and possibly feeling very let down by society, angry, upset and feeling that the world is out to get them," she said.

Debbie thinks it's fine if a lesbian woman does not want to date a trans woman, but is concerned some are being pressured to do so.

"The way that shaming is used is just horrific; it's emotional manipulation and warfare going on," she said.

"These women who want to form relationships with other biological women are feeling bad about that. How did we get here?"

Stonewall is the largest LGBT organisation in the UK and Europe. I asked the charity about these issues but it was unable to provide anyone for interview. However, in a statement, chief executive Nancy Kelley likened not wanting to date trans people to not wanting to date people of colour, fat people, or disabled people.

She said: "Sexuality is personal and something which is unique to each of us. There is no 'right' way to be a lesbian, and only we can know who we're attracted to.

"Nobody should ever be pressured into dating, or pressured into dating people they aren't attracted to. But if you find that when dating, you are writing off entire groups of people, like people of colour, fat people, disabled people or trans people, then it's worth considering how societal prejudices may have shaped your attractions.

"We know that prejudice is still common in the LGBT+ community, and it's important that we can talk about that openly and honestly."

OP posts:
Thread gallery
9
RedToothBrush · 29/10/2021 15:32

middle class techy*

QueenSue · 29/10/2021 15:33

Yet another man who think his sexual wants are more important than a woman's needs to not be sexually violated.

TheHoneyBadger · 29/10/2021 15:45

Yep. I'm afraid I couldn't help but see the word 'maintenance' as relating to the men have needs rhetoric.

That entitlement and assumption we're on earth for their needs is everywhere and wearing lipstick makes zero difference to the mentality.

334bu · 29/10/2021 15:48

I think a bigger problem is men not hearing or not understanding no.

I think it's more a question of men not wanting to hear no, so they don't.hear it.

TheHoneyBadger · 29/10/2021 15:48

Logically the sense of entitlement of heterosexual men who identify as trans is likely to be even larger than that of men who don't identify as trans. You've got all the run of the mill male entitlement and conditioning and as icing on the cake all of the 'stunning and brave' smoke blown up arses and people bending over backwards and being fearful to put a foot wrong... It's potentially quite a dangerous combo.

Artichokeleaves · 29/10/2021 16:39

@PurgatoryOfPotholes

twitter.com/LabelFreeBrands/status/1386646642460270593?t=yGm_aBv2IPQoZ3EMHRIhvg&s=19

Quote from texts:
^"just because I have a penis doesn't mean you can suddenly decide you don't want to date and/or fuck me. I have needs."

Bloody hell.

I mean we get told constantly we're imagining all of this and fear mongering and misinterpreting, and then - there it is.

Just because you're homosexual does not mean you can decide you don't want to let a male fuck you when they've decided they have needs and you'll be meeting them.

Just wow. There are male people who will actually say this stuff right out loud and not realise how it looks. But thanks for the honesty mate, it helps make the point that women at this point really, really need to sort out their boundaries.

Artichokeleaves · 29/10/2021 16:47

Re reading that and getting angry all over again about the woman's response - sorry, sorry, shhh, there there, really sorry -

instead of handing this individual their behind for their appalling attitude and behaviour, and their absolute overt lack of respect. And pointing out what a narrow escape she had.

Those women here on these threads who spend time repeating how some women have penises, are directly responsible for enabling this entitlement, this attitude, this appalling behaviour. And for gaslighting women into accepting it instead of having the boundaries to say clearly to anyone of any sex or any gender or any identity who treats them badly, with disrespect, who expects sex to be one way servicing, who does not care about their partner's feelings, desires, needs, and pleasure. The answer for that is always gtf. It's LTB. It's the hills are that way, start heading. It's FOTTFSOF.

That is an equal opportunity response that all women should be using in response to being treated in this way.

Again. FFS women. As a sex class it's past time to sort our bloody boundaries out.

CharlieParley · 29/10/2021 17:48

@TheHoneyBadger

Yep. I'm afraid I couldn't help but see the word 'maintenance' as relating to the men have needs rhetoric.

That entitlement and assumption we're on earth for their needs is everywhere and wearing lipstick makes zero difference to the mentality.

It does. And you're right. And I wholly welcome the teaching of that acronym to help kids understand what consent is. I have a slight preference for the tea video, because that makes it a little easier in my view to explain why we don't badger someone for sex until they give in.

And I'm also a product of my time and although I had never heard of the phrase maintenance sex before, the concept makes a lot of sense. Unfortunately. I'm still unpicking what that means in general and more specifically for me in terms of "lived experience" and the reality of very longterm, monogamous relationships and I must admit I'm struggling with seeing it in quite that black and white - it's not consent if it's not enthusiastic.

It's easy to unlock the meaning of "consent freely given" if you look at a picture of a poster Belstaffie posted on Twitter

It's not consent if you make me afraid to say no.

But in the absence of fear or coercion, enthusistiastic each and every time or it's not consensual is much more challenging to me.

TeamRex · 29/10/2021 18:12

I have a slight preference for the tea video, because that makes it a little easier in my view to explain why we don't badger someone for sex until they give in.

Although I do find many cultures insist on you accepting hospitality in the form of food or drink, so it doesn't entirely work for me.

Thinking of Mrs Doyle in Father Ted.

CharlieParley · 29/10/2021 18:28

@TeamRex

I have a slight preference for the tea video, because that makes it a little easier in my view to explain why we don't badger someone for sex until they give in.

Although I do find many cultures insist on you accepting hospitality in the form of food or drink, so it doesn't entirely work for me.

Thinking of Mrs Doyle in Father Ted.

Aah, yes. I come from a culture where you'll be asked once and you better say yes if you want a cup of tea. Coz I'm not asking again. (Seeing as I'm living in the UK that led to some rather unsatisfied guests until I figured out I was supposed to keep asking because guests were supppsed to be coy about their wishes. I must have made for a funky guest myself...)
TeamRex · 29/10/2021 18:36

Charley, you are welcome to be a guest at my house. I train all my friends to give an honest answer as I can't bear that rigmarole.

TheHoneyBadger · 29/10/2021 19:44

It's sad though isn't it that women have to say yes I agree in theory but in reality I have sex that I don't want even though I'm not afraid.

If what we're saying is that at stages of our lives in general terms men want sex more often than women and therefore women should have sex with men when they don't want to but it's ok because they don't do it out of fear for their immediate safety then it still tells us a lot about the ranking of women and men's importance and primacy of desires.

I refuse to use the word 'needs' in that sentence.

CharlieParley · 29/10/2021 19:55

@TheHoneyBadger

It's sad though isn't it that women have to say yes I agree in theory but in reality I have sex that I don't want even though I'm not afraid.

If what we're saying is that at stages of our lives in general terms men want sex more often than women and therefore women should have sex with men when they don't want to but it's ok because they don't do it out of fear for their immediate safety then it still tells us a lot about the ranking of women and men's importance and primacy of desires.

I refuse to use the word 'needs' in that sentence.

Well, I'm not saying they should have sex. I'm simply reflecting on the fact that they do and thinking about the why.
CharlieParley · 29/10/2021 19:56

(But maybe I have misunderstood what is meant by "maintenance sex"?)

FlyingOink · 29/10/2021 20:20

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk guidelines.

CharlieParley · 29/10/2021 20:25

@TeamRex

Charley, you are welcome to be a guest at my house. I train all my friends to give an honest answer as I can't bear that rigmarole.
Thank you! You'd always get a straight yes or no from me. (I kind of roll my eyes internally when guests want me to persuade them. And then I cure them Grin)
PrawnofthePatriarchy · 30/10/2021 14:01

I am always surprised when trans people seem so angry and baffled by the lack of sexual interest from others. I remember a survey (which I can't currently find) which showed how few people of any sexual orientation were sexually interested in trans people. I'm sure someone else will know what I'm talking about.

I think transition, particularly medical transition, is a bit like getting a full face tattoo. If that's what you need to do then do it. But you have to accept it's going to dramatically reduce your dating pool.

PurgatoryOfPotholes · 30/10/2021 15:29

Angela Wild has issued a statement about her research.

twitter.com/FrenchFem/status/1454354618864087044?t=m1oTdYYh1Y6q9VA1AzsT1Q&s=19

BBC cotton ceiling thread, number 2
OP posts:
PurgatoryOfPotholes · 30/10/2021 15:48

Text version of image for people using screenreaders

"We understand our research is under attack for not being "representative". We never claimed statistical generalisation with this work as the methodology makes clear, but to show that a phenomenon does indeed exist and needs to be investigated further. This is what larger LGBT organisations are funded to do yet they neglect their duty towards lesbians and demonised survivors instead.

Many studies done by Stonewall themselves used a much smaller sample yet claim statistical generalisation and are used to change legislation. Yet they do not receive such negative reception as our piece did.

We spoke to victims of the cotton ceiling. Rape is not an anecdote when it happens to you. These women are brave beyond measure to speak up especially in the current climate of silencing we live in. Their stories are important and need to be heard in the wider #metoo context and the lesbophobic culture promoted by most, if not all LGBT organisations.
We believe women. We believe lesbians."

Angela C. Wild
Get the L Out

OP posts:
LaetitiaASD · 30/10/2021 16:14

@PrawnofthePatriarchy

I am always surprised when trans people seem so angry and baffled by the lack of sexual interest from others. I remember a survey (which I can't currently find) which showed how few people of any sexual orientation were sexually interested in trans people. I'm sure someone else will know what I'm talking about.

I think transition, particularly medical transition, is a bit like getting a full face tattoo. If that's what you need to do then do it. But you have to accept it's going to dramatically reduce your dating pool.

I'd be seriously put off by anyone who had cosmetic surgery (not including things like a skin graft on you face after a car accident just to be clear), and trans surgery is like cosmetic surgery only 10 times worse.

Trans teens REALLY REALLY REALLY need to have two things drummed home -

Most people have a SEXUAL orientation. They like people of one sex or the other, and typically their attraction is to male bodies and masculinity, or female bodies and femininity. Not male bodies and femininity and not cut up male bodies no matter what the gender expression.

Your SEX cannot change.

Enough4me · 31/10/2021 01:10

We can look at other animals to help us understand attraction. Sexual attraction (for mating purposes) is generally led by specific mating ritual processes and characteristics. Animals are generally drawn to the opposite sex features that would lead to successful sexual reproduction. It makes sense that humans are hard wired to find these certain sex based characteristics appealing (height, face shape, voice depth, hip proportions). In the case of same sex attraction, which is a smaller group, the person still is looking for characteristics, but of the same sex. Bisexual people are open to both sets of characteristics. There isn't a group hard wired for a mix of characteristics that include drug induced or surgically altered characteristics so the pool is likely to be even smaller. That doesn't mean that they are not attractive, but attraction is never 'owed' by anyone and some people just struggle to find it.

LobsterNapkin · 31/10/2021 01:47

@CharlieParley

(But maybe I have misunderstood what is meant by "maintenance sex"?)
Usually what people mean is that one person isn't all that interested, and the other person is. Obviously what that looks like is going to differ a lot between relationships.

But we all know, in long term, monogamous relationships, there are very often disparities. It's not the case that they all go one way either. It's not at all unheard of for women to complain about male partners that are no longer interested in sex - it's pretty common for the woman to be the one who complains about not enough sex.

That sort of thing is usually not a sustainable situation in a relationship.

But the underlying problem it seems to me, reading people's posts, is that they don't think that individuals can themselves have very mixed feelings about something like sex. They might not be all that interested in or even get a lot out of sex in itself, but care about the feelings or well being of their partner, or want to get pregnant, or they know that sex is part of the relationship and they want to continue it, when their partner might quite reasonably want to end it otherwise.

Yes, that could in some cases lead into an unhealthy dynamic. But telling people consent needs to be enthusiastic really isn't the way to avoid that.

PrawnofthePatriarchy · 31/10/2021 06:09

During out honeymoon my husband said he had something important to talk about. He wanted us to never have sex unless we were both really up for it. He believed that having sex because of a feeling of obligation was what killed desire. Better less sex than feeling you ought to.

This theory made perfect sense to me so I happily agreed. We'd been together for 17 years before he died and right up until his final illness our sex life, though sometimes sparse, was passionate and erotic. A lesson to live by.

BloodinGutters · 31/10/2021 07:18

@334bu

*I think a bigger problem is men not hearing or not understanding no. *

I think it's more a question of men not wanting to hear no, so they don't.hear it.

Many people don’t see women as human, we’re just a subset of humans, designed support props for men to use, to serve them, objects. Walking holes to fuck. Pets to adore them.

Mastabatory toys or pets or props don’t have a voice.

To plenty men they won’t hear no because they won’t hear anything said by those they consider objects. We might as well be meowing or barking from their pov.

RedToothBrush · 31/10/2021 08:03

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10148315/Theres-climate-fear-BBC-stories-race-transgender.html

Important story. Its journalism. It ties with what friends at the BBC have told me personally.

The irony is its published in the Mail. Ironically i am currently seeing a trend of the mail doing a number of actual journalistic pieces (rather than celeb trash fodder or nonsense pieces to wind up people) on subjects across the board - but particularly controversial ones - where the BBC then takes up the same story after its already broken.

Its such a shame because it would have been the other way in the past.

It ties with everything thats been said on here about the bbc in recent years, and is the exact same dynamic thats present within the LD federal party system.

The reality is you don't change things or people by supression of ideas or views. You merely alienate and enrage them in a democratic society. You create a toxic mix of resentment and grievance which is utterly counterproductive in increasing understanding and furthering a cause. And it doesn't solve problems. I don't think it does much to resolve prejudices at all at their core.

The entire point of debate and tackling things openly is you win people over because they understand and support the importance of things without the need to have a culture of fear.

If the culture of fear suddenly crumbles you get a massive roll back and backlash as its exposed that no one really believed that shit to begin with. And thats dangerous.

Anyway, i think we are going to see a lot more rollback on it from various quarters as funding becomes less available.

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