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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

BBC cotton ceiling thread, number 2

397 replies

PurgatoryOfPotholes · 27/10/2021 13:33

Due to some people's fervent objections, here is the article with the mention of the questionnaire excised.

As you can see, the article stands without it.

part 1

Is a lesbian transphobic if she does not want to have sex with trans women? Some lesbians say they are increasingly being pressured and coerced into accepting trans women as partners - then shunned and even threatened for speaking out. Several have spoken to the BBC, along with trans women who are concerned about the issue too.

Warning: Story contains strong language

"I've had someone saying they would rather kill me than Hitler," says 24-year-old Jennie*.

"They said they would strangle me with a belt if they were in a room with me and Hitler. That was so bizarrely violent, just because I won't have sex with trans women."

Jennie is a lesbian woman. She says she is only sexually attracted to women who are biologically female and have vaginas. She therefore only has sex and relationships with women who are biologically female.

Jennie doesn't think this should be controversial, but not everyone agrees. She has been described as transphobic, a genital fetishist, a pervert and a "terf" - a trans exclusionary radical feminist.

"There's a common argument that they try and use that goes 'What if you met a woman in a bar and she's really beautiful and you got on really well and you went home and you discovered that she has a penis? Would you just not be interested?'" says Jennie, who lives in London and works in fashion.

"Yes, because even if someone seems attractive at first you can go off them. I just don't possess the capacity to be sexually attracted to people who are biologically male, regardless of how they identify."

I became aware of this particular issue after I wrote an article aboutsex, lies and legal consent.

Several people got in touch with me to say there was a "huge problem" for lesbians, who were being pressured to "accept the idea that a penis can be a female sex organ".

I knew this would be a hugely divisive subject, but I wanted to find out how widespread the issue was.

Ultimately, it has been difficult to determine the true scale of the problem because there has been little research on this topic - only one survey to my knowledge. However, those affected have told me the pressure comes from a minority of trans women, as well as activists who are not necessarily trans themselves.

They described being harassed and silenced if they tried to discuss the issue openly. I received online abuse myself when I tried to find interviewees using social media.

One of the lesbian women I spoke to, 24-year-old Amy*, told me she experienced verbal abuse from her own girlfriend, a bisexual woman who wanted them to have a threesome with a trans woman.

When Amy explained her reasons for not wanting to, her girlfriend became angry.

"The first thing she called me was transphobic," Amy said. "She immediately jumped to make me feel guilty about not wanting to sleep with someone."

She said the trans woman in question had not undergone genital surgery, so still had a penis.

"I know there is zero possibility for me to be attracted to this person," said Amy, who lives in the south west of England and works in a small print and design studio.

"I can hear their male vocal cords. I can see their male jawline. I know, under their clothes, there is male genitalia. These are physical realities, that, as a woman who likes women, you can't just ignore."

Amy said she would feel this way even if a trans woman had undergone genital surgery - which some opt for, while many don't.

Soon afterwards Amy and her girlfriend split up.

"I remember she was extremely shocked and angry, and claimed my views were extremist propaganda and inciting violence towards the trans community, as well as comparing me to far-right groups," she said.

Another lesbian woman, 26-year-old Chloe*, said she felt so pressured she ended up having penetrative sex with a trans woman at university after repeatedly explaining she was not interested.

They lived near each other in halls of residence. Chloe had been drinking alcohol and does not think she could have given proper consent.

"I felt very bad for hating every moment, because the idea is we are attracted to gender rather than sex, and I did not feel that, and I felt bad for feeling like that," she said.

Ashamed and embarrassed, she decided not to tell anyone.

"The language at the time was very much 'trans women are women, they are always women, lesbians should date them'. And I was like, that's the reason I rejected this person. Does that make me bad? Am I not going to be allowed to be in the LGBT community anymore? Am I going to face repercussions for that instead?' So I didn't actually tell anyone."

Hearing about experiences like these led one lesbian activist to begin researching the topic. Angela C. Wild is co-founder of Get The L Out, whose members believe the rights of lesbians are being ignored by much of the current LGBT movement.

She and her fellow activists have demonstrated at Pride marches in the UK, where they have faced opposition. Pride in London accused the group of "bigotry, ignorance and hate".

"Lesbians are still extremely scared to speak because they think they won't be believed, because the trans ideology is so silencing everywhere," she said.

"I thought I would be called a transphobe or that it would be wrong of me to turn down a trans woman who wanted to exchange nude pictures," one woman wrote. "Young women feel pressured to sleep with trans women 'to prove I am not a terf'."

One woman reported being targeted in an online group. "I was told that homosexuality doesn't exist and I owed it to my trans sisters to unlearn my 'genital confusion' so I can enjoy letting them penetrate me," she wrote.

One compared going on dates with trans women to so-called conversion therapy - the controversial practice of trying to change someone's sexual orientation.

"I knew I wasn't attracted to them but internalised the idea that it was because of my 'transmisogyny' and that if I dated them for long enough I could start to be attracted to them. It was DIY conversion therapy," she wrote.

Another reported a trans woman physically forcing her to have sex after they went on a date.

"[They] threatened to out me as a terf and risk my job if I refused to sleep with [them]," she wrote. "I was too young to argue and had been brainwashed by queer theory so [they were] a 'woman' even if every fibre of my being was screaming throughout so I agreed to go home with [them]. [They] used physical force when I changed my mind upon seeing [their] penis and raped me."

While welcomed by some in the LGBT community, Angela's report was described as transphobic by others.

"[People said] we are worse than rapists because we [supposedly] try to frame every trans woman as a rapist," said Angela.

"This is not the point. The point is that if it happens we need to speak about it. If it happens to one woman it's wrong. As it turns out it happens to more than one woman."

Trans YouTuber Rose of Dawn has discussed the issue on her channelin a video called "Is Not Dating Trans People 'Transphobic'?"

"This is something I've seen happen in real life to friends of mine. This was happening before I actually started my channel and it was one of the things that spurred it on," said Rose.

"What's happening is women who are attracted to biological females and female genitalia are finding themselves put in very awkward positions, where if for example on a dating website a trans woman approaches them and they say 'sorry I'm not into trans women', then they are labelled as transphobic."

Rose made the video in response to a series of tweets bytrans athlete Veronica Ivy, then known as Rachel McKinnon,whowrote about hypothetical scenarioswhere trans people are rejected, and argued that "genital preferences" are transphobic.

I asked Veronica Ivy if she would speak to me but she did not want to.

Rose believes views like this are "incredibly toxic". She believes the idea that dating preferences are transphobic is being pushed by radical trans activists and their "self-proclaimed allies", who have extreme views which don't reflect the views of trans women she knows in real life.

"Certainly from my own friends group, the trans women I'm friends with, almost all of them agree lesbians are free to exclude trans women from their dating pool," she said.

However, she believes even trans people are afraid to talk openly about this for fear of abuse.

"People like me receive quite a lot of abuse from trans activists and their allies," she said.

"The trans activist side is incredibly rabid against people who they see as stepping out of line."

Debbie Hayton, a science teacher who transitioned in 2012 andwrites about trans issues, worries some people transition without realising how hard it will be to form relationships.

Although there is currently little data on the sexual orientation of trans women, she believes most are female-attracted because they are biologically male and most males are attracted to women.

"So when they [trans women] are trying to find partners, when lesbian women say 'we want women', and heterosexual women say they want a heterosexual man, that leaves trans women isolated from relationships, and possibly feeling very let down by society, angry, upset and feeling that the world is out to get them," she said.

Debbie thinks it's fine if a lesbian woman does not want to date a trans woman, but is concerned some are being pressured to do so.

"The way that shaming is used is just horrific; it's emotional manipulation and warfare going on," she said.

"These women who want to form relationships with other biological women are feeling bad about that. How did we get here?"

Stonewall is the largest LGBT organisation in the UK and Europe. I asked the charity about these issues but it was unable to provide anyone for interview. However, in a statement, chief executive Nancy Kelley likened not wanting to date trans people to not wanting to date people of colour, fat people, or disabled people.

She said: "Sexuality is personal and something which is unique to each of us. There is no 'right' way to be a lesbian, and only we can know who we're attracted to.

"Nobody should ever be pressured into dating, or pressured into dating people they aren't attracted to. But if you find that when dating, you are writing off entire groups of people, like people of colour, fat people, disabled people or trans people, then it's worth considering how societal prejudices may have shaped your attractions.

"We know that prejudice is still common in the LGBT+ community, and it's important that we can talk about that openly and honestly."

OP posts:
Thread gallery
9
BloodinGutters · 29/10/2021 06:57

@LobsterNapkin

You seem to be missing the point, I’m not sure if that’s intended to be pedantic or not. But enthusiastic consent just comes from the word fitting in the acronym. It’s maybe not the best choice of word but it works just fine to make it clear women have the right to say no unless they are certain. It isn’t meant to suggest everyone has to feel any set way about that.

It’s great you know your boundaries. Clearly plenty women don’t, as demonstrated in the article. And constantly on posts on MN about women who have consented when they really weren’t into it or who feel they should consent when they aren’t sure.

The acronym is meant to help, especially younger, women understand consent and it works just fine for plenty. I’m not sure why you are deliberately twisting that to be something all about you.

I am a woman and I most definitely needed taught I had the right to say no, and taught if I wasn’t really into it that was a perfectly valid reason to say no. I’ve spent years in abuse survivor groups and that was a pretty common experience. It’s not difficult concept to grasp. Opposing comes across like patronising the need for it, when plenty of us do need to learn this as female socialisation is geared around teaching us we should have sex to keep men happy.

Helleofabore · 29/10/2021 07:25

DadDadDad

Well if John Cleese had more questions then I look forward to the wording.

Enough4me · 29/10/2021 07:41

@ErrolTheDragon, I agree and think it's important to comment on the BBC's reply to the letter as well as to the report. That way they have an evidence base of the need to report the situation honestly. The trans complaints seek to downplay the impact on women (oh just a few lesbians, nevermind attitude), but the comments in support show that this is a real issue, that women's right to select a partner should not be manipulated to appease demanding men, and our opinions (and facts) should not be suppressed.

LobsterNapkin · 29/10/2021 10:12

[quote BloodinGutters]@LobsterNapkin

You seem to be missing the point, I’m not sure if that’s intended to be pedantic or not. But enthusiastic consent just comes from the word fitting in the acronym. It’s maybe not the best choice of word but it works just fine to make it clear women have the right to say no unless they are certain. It isn’t meant to suggest everyone has to feel any set way about that.

It’s great you know your boundaries. Clearly plenty women don’t, as demonstrated in the article. And constantly on posts on MN about women who have consented when they really weren’t into it or who feel they should consent when they aren’t sure.

The acronym is meant to help, especially younger, women understand consent and it works just fine for plenty. I’m not sure why you are deliberately twisting that to be something all about you.

I am a woman and I most definitely needed taught I had the right to say no, and taught if I wasn’t really into it that was a perfectly valid reason to say no. I’ve spent years in abuse survivor groups and that was a pretty common experience. It’s not difficult concept to grasp. Opposing comes across like patronising the need for it, when plenty of us do need to learn this as female socialisation is geared around teaching us we should have sex to keep men happy.[/quote]
Words need to be used carefully. When people say "enthusiastic" many of them take that to mean exactly what it says, and I've seen long defenses of why it is only ok for people to have sex when they choose it for certain reason, based on that wording. In this thread it was said that people in long term relationships having what was described as "maintenance sex" was an example of something that is not enthusiastic, and was therefor unhealthy.

When you start to eat away at the kind of autonomy women have to make choices about sex, there are consequences to that thinking. It suggests that there needs to be gatekeepers, and maybe about other things as well.

Yes, some (many) young people are not good at boundaries around sex, and other things. There can be a variety of reasons for that, including just inexperience, but in the end understanding them is in large part about taking responsibility for our own decisions and understanding that they belong to us, we need to set the parameters for them, whatever those parameters are, and then we are responsible when we act on that, and not responsible when we haven't been able to.

To try and reduce that to "enthusiastic" for an acronym is dangerous. Words and ideas have meaning. If we can see anything with gender ideology over the last few years it should be how reductive catchphrases and words used because they seem about right have consequences. People believe them, and apply them. Ideas like consent and decisions only count if we make them for the right reasons are not accurate and lead to disempowerment, not only personally but potentially beyond that.

secular111 · 29/10/2021 10:36

As of 10:25am 29th October there were 18,510 signatures on the awfully-edited open letter to the BBC, of which 10,873 were verified. Many signatures were 'JKR' and 'J.K. Rowling' with accompanying rape/death/sexual assault threats, which appear to have been removed, but a few gems remain.

There's a surprisingly high proportion of signatures from outside the UK, perhaps reflecting the reality in this country.

As a resource for identifying suspect homophobes, the signature list is going to be a hugely useful resource in-the-future. But how would a lesbian be feeling if they found a work colleague had signed the letter? Not just a homophobe but also a rape apologist?

BBC cotton ceiling thread, number 2
TheHoneyBadger · 29/10/2021 10:46

Please define what you mean by 'maintenance sex' and how it conflicts with your idea of what enthusiastic means?

Is 'maintenance sex', sex that both partners aren't enthusiastic about having or just women? Who and what is being maintained by unwanted sex?

FlyingOink · 29/10/2021 10:58

@TheHoneyBadger

Please define what you mean by 'maintenance sex' and how it conflicts with your idea of what enthusiastic means?

Is 'maintenance sex', sex that both partners aren't enthusiastic about having or just women? Who and what is being maintained by unwanted sex?

Good questions.
Dwrcegin · 29/10/2021 12:13

@Clymene

Lesbians are same sex attracted. Het women are opposite attracted. Men who transition have reduced their potential dating pool enormously because they don't fit into either of those boxes. So some of them are very angry about that.

This is nothing other than male rage at women not wanting to have sex with them. I have said no thank you to men who have offered to buy me a drink/wanted to chat with me in clubs and bars on many occasions. I have been told:

  • I'm an ugly fucking slag
  • I'm a lesbian (not an insult obvs)
  • they didn't fancy me anyway
  • who the FUCK do I think I am
  • fat bitch
Etc etc. Every single insult you can think of that men aim at women who have the temerity to say no.

This is what this is. Women saying no.

100% this.
RedToothBrush · 29/10/2021 12:22

www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-59088800
BBC unveils 'significant' 10-point impartiality plan

Well....

TheHoneyBadger · 29/10/2021 12:30

Hmm I did find this on 'maintenance sex': www.nbcnews.com/better/pop-culture/what-maintenance-sex-it-may-help-strengthen-your-marriage-ncna956216

It talks a lot about us and we and how certain factors can influence sex drive but seems to ignore the elephant in the room of biological sex and disparities between the lived experiences of those sex classes which are just talked about as if they are sex neutral.

I found this a bit contradictory: So long as both parties are wholly on board, indulging one partner in a romp when one isn’t initially in the mood can be beneficial - I don't get how the clause of 'both parties are wholly on board' can coexist with one person indulging another when they're not interested in sex simultaneously. It sounds like gaslighting tbh - you can be wholly on board with having sex when you don't want to? If that's where the poster is coming from I can see why she'd find the idea of consent confusing or unnecessary.

TheHoneyBadger · 29/10/2021 12:36

I mean I totally 'get' that you may 'choose' to have sex with your partner for reasons other than wanting to have sex and women may choose to have sex they don't want for a myriad of reasons. I don't let that muddy the water of what true consent is and how we should hope to encourage boys and men to view sex and women and their needs though.

The fact that an old paradigm is in place and some women choose to go along with it doesn't get to limit people's visions and views of what the paradigm should be if women were seen as full human beings and men weren't taught that women are on earth primarily to fulfil their alleged 'needs'.

Some people choose to put up with casual racism to keep a roof over their children's heads and no they shouldn't be disrespected for doing so but we shouldn't modify our view of what non racist workplaces look like to accommodate that.

PickAChew · 29/10/2021 12:41

I think it might have been me who originally mentioned maintenance sex as an illustration of the distinction between "yes please" (enthusiastic consent) and "if you must" (implying an element of coercion)

Dwrcegin · 29/10/2021 12:46

Nancy Kelly - *Sexuality is personal and something which is unique to each of us. There is no 'right' way to be a lesbian, and only we can know who we're attracted to.

"Nobody should ever be pressured into dating, or pressured into dating people they aren't attracted to. But if you find that when dating, you are writing off entire groups of people, like people of colour, fat people, disabled people or trans people, then it's worth considering how societal prejudices may have shaped your attractions."*

I put in a lot of effort with my kids to understand consent. So this utter guff being put into the public domain by the head of a supposed LGB founded lobby/charity group makes me sick.

It says to my kid that her preference is a problem because she's written off a group of people, that whole group is full of men. Does Nancy Kelly really understand the magnitude of what she has said?

334bu · 29/10/2021 13:20

Does Nancy Kelly really understand the magnitude of what she has said?

She doesn't care. Stonewall needs transactivism.

PronounssheRa · 29/10/2021 13:26

Does Nancy Kelly really understand the magnitude of what she has said?

Nancy will say whatever it is she is paid to say. There is a reason the CEO job took so long to fill, and why many established charity leaders wouldn't touch the job with a bargepole.

It's a classic glass cliff appointment

Artichokeleaves · 29/10/2021 13:56

.... yeah. Lets run that through the bullshit translator shall we?

Nancy Kelly - Sexuality is personal and something which is unique to each of us. There is no 'right' way to be a lesbian, and only we can know who we're attracted to = if male people say they are lesbians, or if female people who sleep with male people say they are lesbians, you must not argue with them and say this is not being a lesbian.

"Nobody should ever be pressured into dating, or pressured into dating people they aren't attracted to. But if you find that when dating, you are writing off entire groups of people, like people of colour, fat people, disabled people or trans people, then it's worth considering how societal prejudices may have shaped your attractions." - when I said 'only we can know who we're attracted to', 'we' meant male people or female people conforming with male people. It did not mean you. And when I said 'there is no right way to be a lesbian', I did not mean you either. You may not be a female person who denies male people sexual access to your body. This is wrong and prejudiced of you and you need to learn to get over it. Conversion therapy for you would be a Good Thing and righteous in the name of Social Justice. Amen.

Nancy, you're being rampantly homophobic and misogynist, love. If not actually male supremacist. The answer's no. You need to think this through a whole lot more.

LaetitiaASD · 29/10/2021 14:01

@SteveArnottsWaistcoat

I don’t have any issues with trans people at all. I totally get that people can change their gender. BUT to chastise someone for NOT wanting to sleep with someone they aren’t attracted to is just totally wrong!
Erm - that's transphobic - people don't change their gender - their gender is some special spiritual scientific thing that is innate and completely separate from biological reality, but they can be literally identical to others despite having opposite sex biological realities..

And they can't change sex either.

LaetitiaASD · 29/10/2021 14:06

[quote BloodinGutters]@LobsterNapkin

You seem to be missing the point, I’m not sure if that’s intended to be pedantic or not. But enthusiastic consent just comes from the word fitting in the acronym. It’s maybe not the best choice of word but it works just fine to make it clear women have the right to say no unless they are certain. It isn’t meant to suggest everyone has to feel any set way about that.

It’s great you know your boundaries. Clearly plenty women don’t, as demonstrated in the article. And constantly on posts on MN about women who have consented when they really weren’t into it or who feel they should consent when they aren’t sure.

The acronym is meant to help, especially younger, women understand consent and it works just fine for plenty. I’m not sure why you are deliberately twisting that to be something all about you.

I am a woman and I most definitely needed taught I had the right to say no, and taught if I wasn’t really into it that was a perfectly valid reason to say no. I’ve spent years in abuse survivor groups and that was a pretty common experience. It’s not difficult concept to grasp. Opposing comes across like patronising the need for it, when plenty of us do need to learn this as female socialisation is geared around teaching us we should have sex to keep men happy.[/quote]
I hope you're doing well know.

The impression I get is that a hell of a lot of women are bad at saying no when they mean no.

I think a bigger problem is men not hearing or not understanding no. And when women fail to say no, but strongly hint at no, men aren't very good at joining the dots and interpretting it as a no.

LaetitiaASD · 29/10/2021 14:06

now not know

HoardingSamphireSaurus · 29/10/2021 14:47

Erm - that's transphobic - people don't change their gender - their gender is some special spiritual scientific thing that is innate and completely separate from biological reality, but they can be literally identical to others despite having opposite sex biological realities.

Happy to see you managed to clarify it all Smile

RedToothBrush · 29/10/2021 14:58

@secular111

As of 10:25am 29th October there were 18,510 signatures on the awfully-edited open letter to the BBC, of which 10,873 were verified. Many signatures were 'JKR' and 'J.K. Rowling' with accompanying rape/death/sexual assault threats, which appear to have been removed, but a few gems remain.

There's a surprisingly high proportion of signatures from outside the UK, perhaps reflecting the reality in this country.

As a resource for identifying suspect homophobes, the signature list is going to be a hugely useful resource in-the-future. But how would a lesbian be feeling if they found a work colleague had signed the letter? Not just a homophobe but also a rape apologist?

I have to say its interesting looking through the signatories, seeing the number of non-british signatories, the number of male names and the number who work in tech or animation or gaming or creative arts or are students.

It looks very unrepresentative of the population as a whole. Where are all the builders and plumbers? Where are all the manual labourers generally? Its a fascinating incite actually, and I'd love some on to do some analysis of it.

PurgatoryOfPotholes · 29/10/2021 15:08

twitter.com/LabelFreeBrands/status/1386646642460270593?t=yGm_aBv2IPQoZ3EMHRIhvg&s=19

Quote from texts:
^"just because I have a penis doesn't mean you can suddenly decide you don't want to date and/or fuck me. I have needs."

OP posts:
RedToothBrush · 29/10/2021 15:26

So of the 11,589 verified names I can see, there's a Mustapha Fakeone and an Endeavour Lewis (one for the Morse fans that one). So thats interesting.

A quick search of the following words returns the following:

student - 1277 hits
tech - 131
game - 68
london - 1730
developer - 219
programmer - 52
rape - 3
software - 359
university - 316
france - 21
toronto - 35
chicago - 36
seattle - 31

I can't search IT easily because it comes up with words containing it.

But thats taken me 10 mins.

Its very informative, it has to be said.

Helleofabore · 29/10/2021 15:29

That was an enlightening exchange purgatory.

‘I have needs’. It all comes down to that doesn’t it.

Isn’t there a name for males who believe that females owe them sex and are hateful for not giving them what they want?

RedToothBrush · 29/10/2021 15:32

Question:

Is this mainly a student / middle techy dominated problem which wouldn't be happening without the internet?

Cos I'm starting to find it very hard to believe otherwise tbh.

Swipe left for the next trending thread