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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

BBC cotton ceiling thread, number 2

397 replies

PurgatoryOfPotholes · 27/10/2021 13:33

Due to some people's fervent objections, here is the article with the mention of the questionnaire excised.

As you can see, the article stands without it.

part 1

Is a lesbian transphobic if she does not want to have sex with trans women? Some lesbians say they are increasingly being pressured and coerced into accepting trans women as partners - then shunned and even threatened for speaking out. Several have spoken to the BBC, along with trans women who are concerned about the issue too.

Warning: Story contains strong language

"I've had someone saying they would rather kill me than Hitler," says 24-year-old Jennie*.

"They said they would strangle me with a belt if they were in a room with me and Hitler. That was so bizarrely violent, just because I won't have sex with trans women."

Jennie is a lesbian woman. She says she is only sexually attracted to women who are biologically female and have vaginas. She therefore only has sex and relationships with women who are biologically female.

Jennie doesn't think this should be controversial, but not everyone agrees. She has been described as transphobic, a genital fetishist, a pervert and a "terf" - a trans exclusionary radical feminist.

"There's a common argument that they try and use that goes 'What if you met a woman in a bar and she's really beautiful and you got on really well and you went home and you discovered that she has a penis? Would you just not be interested?'" says Jennie, who lives in London and works in fashion.

"Yes, because even if someone seems attractive at first you can go off them. I just don't possess the capacity to be sexually attracted to people who are biologically male, regardless of how they identify."

I became aware of this particular issue after I wrote an article aboutsex, lies and legal consent.

Several people got in touch with me to say there was a "huge problem" for lesbians, who were being pressured to "accept the idea that a penis can be a female sex organ".

I knew this would be a hugely divisive subject, but I wanted to find out how widespread the issue was.

Ultimately, it has been difficult to determine the true scale of the problem because there has been little research on this topic - only one survey to my knowledge. However, those affected have told me the pressure comes from a minority of trans women, as well as activists who are not necessarily trans themselves.

They described being harassed and silenced if they tried to discuss the issue openly. I received online abuse myself when I tried to find interviewees using social media.

One of the lesbian women I spoke to, 24-year-old Amy*, told me she experienced verbal abuse from her own girlfriend, a bisexual woman who wanted them to have a threesome with a trans woman.

When Amy explained her reasons for not wanting to, her girlfriend became angry.

"The first thing she called me was transphobic," Amy said. "She immediately jumped to make me feel guilty about not wanting to sleep with someone."

She said the trans woman in question had not undergone genital surgery, so still had a penis.

"I know there is zero possibility for me to be attracted to this person," said Amy, who lives in the south west of England and works in a small print and design studio.

"I can hear their male vocal cords. I can see their male jawline. I know, under their clothes, there is male genitalia. These are physical realities, that, as a woman who likes women, you can't just ignore."

Amy said she would feel this way even if a trans woman had undergone genital surgery - which some opt for, while many don't.

Soon afterwards Amy and her girlfriend split up.

"I remember she was extremely shocked and angry, and claimed my views were extremist propaganda and inciting violence towards the trans community, as well as comparing me to far-right groups," she said.

Another lesbian woman, 26-year-old Chloe*, said she felt so pressured she ended up having penetrative sex with a trans woman at university after repeatedly explaining she was not interested.

They lived near each other in halls of residence. Chloe had been drinking alcohol and does not think she could have given proper consent.

"I felt very bad for hating every moment, because the idea is we are attracted to gender rather than sex, and I did not feel that, and I felt bad for feeling like that," she said.

Ashamed and embarrassed, she decided not to tell anyone.

"The language at the time was very much 'trans women are women, they are always women, lesbians should date them'. And I was like, that's the reason I rejected this person. Does that make me bad? Am I not going to be allowed to be in the LGBT community anymore? Am I going to face repercussions for that instead?' So I didn't actually tell anyone."

Hearing about experiences like these led one lesbian activist to begin researching the topic. Angela C. Wild is co-founder of Get The L Out, whose members believe the rights of lesbians are being ignored by much of the current LGBT movement.

She and her fellow activists have demonstrated at Pride marches in the UK, where they have faced opposition. Pride in London accused the group of "bigotry, ignorance and hate".

"Lesbians are still extremely scared to speak because they think they won't be believed, because the trans ideology is so silencing everywhere," she said.

"I thought I would be called a transphobe or that it would be wrong of me to turn down a trans woman who wanted to exchange nude pictures," one woman wrote. "Young women feel pressured to sleep with trans women 'to prove I am not a terf'."

One woman reported being targeted in an online group. "I was told that homosexuality doesn't exist and I owed it to my trans sisters to unlearn my 'genital confusion' so I can enjoy letting them penetrate me," she wrote.

One compared going on dates with trans women to so-called conversion therapy - the controversial practice of trying to change someone's sexual orientation.

"I knew I wasn't attracted to them but internalised the idea that it was because of my 'transmisogyny' and that if I dated them for long enough I could start to be attracted to them. It was DIY conversion therapy," she wrote.

Another reported a trans woman physically forcing her to have sex after they went on a date.

"[They] threatened to out me as a terf and risk my job if I refused to sleep with [them]," she wrote. "I was too young to argue and had been brainwashed by queer theory so [they were] a 'woman' even if every fibre of my being was screaming throughout so I agreed to go home with [them]. [They] used physical force when I changed my mind upon seeing [their] penis and raped me."

While welcomed by some in the LGBT community, Angela's report was described as transphobic by others.

"[People said] we are worse than rapists because we [supposedly] try to frame every trans woman as a rapist," said Angela.

"This is not the point. The point is that if it happens we need to speak about it. If it happens to one woman it's wrong. As it turns out it happens to more than one woman."

Trans YouTuber Rose of Dawn has discussed the issue on her channelin a video called "Is Not Dating Trans People 'Transphobic'?"

"This is something I've seen happen in real life to friends of mine. This was happening before I actually started my channel and it was one of the things that spurred it on," said Rose.

"What's happening is women who are attracted to biological females and female genitalia are finding themselves put in very awkward positions, where if for example on a dating website a trans woman approaches them and they say 'sorry I'm not into trans women', then they are labelled as transphobic."

Rose made the video in response to a series of tweets bytrans athlete Veronica Ivy, then known as Rachel McKinnon,whowrote about hypothetical scenarioswhere trans people are rejected, and argued that "genital preferences" are transphobic.

I asked Veronica Ivy if she would speak to me but she did not want to.

Rose believes views like this are "incredibly toxic". She believes the idea that dating preferences are transphobic is being pushed by radical trans activists and their "self-proclaimed allies", who have extreme views which don't reflect the views of trans women she knows in real life.

"Certainly from my own friends group, the trans women I'm friends with, almost all of them agree lesbians are free to exclude trans women from their dating pool," she said.

However, she believes even trans people are afraid to talk openly about this for fear of abuse.

"People like me receive quite a lot of abuse from trans activists and their allies," she said.

"The trans activist side is incredibly rabid against people who they see as stepping out of line."

Debbie Hayton, a science teacher who transitioned in 2012 andwrites about trans issues, worries some people transition without realising how hard it will be to form relationships.

Although there is currently little data on the sexual orientation of trans women, she believes most are female-attracted because they are biologically male and most males are attracted to women.

"So when they [trans women] are trying to find partners, when lesbian women say 'we want women', and heterosexual women say they want a heterosexual man, that leaves trans women isolated from relationships, and possibly feeling very let down by society, angry, upset and feeling that the world is out to get them," she said.

Debbie thinks it's fine if a lesbian woman does not want to date a trans woman, but is concerned some are being pressured to do so.

"The way that shaming is used is just horrific; it's emotional manipulation and warfare going on," she said.

"These women who want to form relationships with other biological women are feeling bad about that. How did we get here?"

Stonewall is the largest LGBT organisation in the UK and Europe. I asked the charity about these issues but it was unable to provide anyone for interview. However, in a statement, chief executive Nancy Kelley likened not wanting to date trans people to not wanting to date people of colour, fat people, or disabled people.

She said: "Sexuality is personal and something which is unique to each of us. There is no 'right' way to be a lesbian, and only we can know who we're attracted to.

"Nobody should ever be pressured into dating, or pressured into dating people they aren't attracted to. But if you find that when dating, you are writing off entire groups of people, like people of colour, fat people, disabled people or trans people, then it's worth considering how societal prejudices may have shaped your attractions.

"We know that prejudice is still common in the LGBT+ community, and it's important that we can talk about that openly and honestly."

OP posts:
Thread gallery
9
Iveputmyselfonthenaughtystep · 01/11/2021 22:18

Lost the link to the bloody article, but copied this statistic about the public resonse to the original BBC article first:
"4,819 complaints about the article but a further 5,520 people wrote in to note their approval of the piece."

Ratioed. Excellent.

DadDadDad · 01/11/2021 22:52

@Iveputmyselfonthenaughtystep

Lost the link to the bloody article, but copied this statistic about the public resonse to the original BBC article first: "4,819 complaints about the article but a further 5,520 people wrote in to note their approval of the piece."

Ratioed. Excellent.

Yes, it would be interesting to know what the usual pattern is for complaints and compliments. I suspect that number of complaints is high for a news article, but I bet they don't normally get many compliments for an article (people less motivated if an article didn't make them cross), so that ratio is even more impressive.
TheHoneyBadger · 01/11/2021 22:52

Helen Joyce was superb! Thank you.

I guess I'm bisexual but have always had a real aversion to labels so have never 'identified' with the term just acknowledged that I've been attracted to and had sexual relations with both males and females.

I resent the rhetoric I'm seeing in some places of well bi women don't have any excuse. Why do I need an excuse? As if our attractions or rather lack of attraction has to be justified?

I've never been attracted to straight women or gay men. I'm exclusively attracted to lesbian women and straight men in their maleness and their femaleness. That doesn't mean I can be attracted to male trying to approximate a woman or vice versa. There's this assumption that we'd shag anything and well the gays and the straights don't want them why can't they just go for the bi's they'll have anything.

It's part of the same attitude towards and stigma of bisexuals that I've likely internalised which is probably part of why on some level I've never liked labels or identified as a bisexual.

Beyond sexuality, and above it, I'm a woman and a feminist - how could I ever be attracted to a man wearing womanhood as a costume and demanding to be validated? I could possibly be physically attracted to transman superficially because they are women and I have been attracted to butch women.

However beyond that superficial appearance level a large part of my being so attracted to butch women is their confidence and courage; and it is courage to go that far in not bowing to demands of femininity and deference in a world where some or many men react very badly to women refusing to play the game; and the fact that can radiate such great qualities (which I won't qualify because they're my projections and it's not for me to say what they are or who are or why they are as they are) WITHOUT being or wanting to be men. Therefore how could I be attracted to a woman who instead of that gives in and decides to identify as a man - there's no comparison.

I've also never been attracted to bisexual men or women which is utterly unreasonable and unfair and yada yada but it is what it is - I just have never been attracted to them deeply enough thus far. I can be aware of the unreasonableness and hypocrisy of that position whilst being unable to affect it. I'm attracted to lesbians and straight men and they are very distinct categories.

TheHoneyBadger · 01/11/2021 22:55

Sorry that was a bit off topic but I thought Helen Joyce was fab. I loved that she says openly actually no I don't think we will reach a point of civil conversation and we just have to win.

To coin a phrase: you don't negotiate with terrorists.

BloodinGutters · 01/11/2021 23:08

@TheHoneyBadger

Sorry that was a bit off topic but I thought Helen Joyce was fab. I loved that she says openly actually no I don't think we will reach a point of civil conversation and we just have to win.

To coin a phrase: you don't negotiate with terrorists.

This is not an issue that has any middle ground.

On one hand there’s women’s rights, lesbians rights, children’s safeguarding, democratic freedoms.

Then on the other there’s gender ideology.

The middle ground would be the equivalent of agreeing the world is a bit flat.

Can’t be done. Can’t budge an inch. Hj is spot on. This is win or death.

TheHoneyBadger · 01/11/2021 23:10

And I think we are starting to win.

Their constant own goals are rather helpful.

FindTheTruth · 02/11/2021 07:01

The Times and The Telegraph articles saying "20k signatures' seem lazy to me. They didn't pick up Sarah Phillimore's analysis that the true number of valid signatures is no more than 9,701, when you remove 'anonymous', clearly fake and 'out of jurisdiction'. . And the The Times article doesn't include the number 4,819 complaints vs 5,520 compliments.

Igneococcus · 02/11/2021 07:10

There are a few comments that question the number and Sarah Phillimore gets a mention too, but yes, it should be in the article.

lifeturnsonadime · 02/11/2021 10:49

@Blessex

Tell me this is a joke….
  1. Twitter were not auto finishing the #istandwithlesbians hashtag
  1. They were not doing a little précis upfront on the trending page (altho they did one for the cis with the t hashtag with far far fewer tweets)
  1. Now they ARE autocompleting it - but have done a typo!!! #istandwithleabians

Have Twitter been stonewalled?

I think so I have been suspended from twitter for saying that a person who believes that a lesbian can have a penis and threatens lesbians with rape is a homophobe. & a misogynist. I will be allowed back on the site if I remove my 'hate speech".
Artichokeleaves · 02/11/2021 11:46

On one hand there’s women’s rights, lesbians rights, children’s safeguarding, democratic freedoms. Then on the other there’s gender ideology. The middle ground would be the equivalent of agreeing the world is a bit flat.

I agree.

The only possible 'compromise' is for gender ideologists to accept and tolerate that not everyone is or must be compliant to gender ideology, and that others are entitled to beliefs, expression, spaces, resources etc that are respected and boundaried without harassment for being heretics. Third spaces provided and used to allow two different belief systems to live peacefully alongside each other without forcing compelled participation in either one.

I think by now it's become very plain that gender ideologists will never accept tolerating or suffering others to have or express those views, and have no interest in the impact of this regardless of how often it is explained. Other people having needs and issues is 'hate'. 'Inclusion' is not for them. Therefore I'm afraid Joyce is absolutely right.

ElectricCarbonara · 04/11/2021 23:09

I am entertained by how prudish men become when lesbians talk about this subject.

Lloyd Russell-Moyle MPRoseRainbow flag
@lloyd_rm
Tonight I have written to the Director-General of the
@BBC
to ask him to explain how the they got their "Trans" story so wrong

Just one week ago he gave me assurances that all processes were followed

An apology is now needed

He's written a letter so prim and proper I can't quite take it seriously and I doubt anyone else will. I can't copy it as I have to use incognito to read it.

Sexual hostility to women is sush a taboo subject members of Parliament are writing to public broadcasters demanding it's not mentioned.

I hope they keep doing this. Men like Russell don't women to have this in the public domain.

I'm very glad that they make their prejudice so visible.

Enough4me · 07/11/2021 23:46

Are they afraid of admitting that significant numbers of women face sexual abuse by men, as scared that they will be asked to tackle this and it suits the old boys networks to ignore the issues?

PurgatoryOfPotholes · 10/11/2021 22:50

'Chloe' from the BBC article speaks out about how the reaction to the article has made her feel.

Lesbian and Gay News

When I was a student in university, I was sexually assaulted. I was 18 years old, newly out at my university, when on a night out a transwoman from the LGBT Society insisted on ‘helping me home’ before taking advantage of my drunken state and pushing me into sex. This person messaged me continuously for the next three weeks, asking me to ‘meet’ again, and then sending me pictures of self-harm wounds when I refused. After I eventually blocked this person, they told the LGBT Society that I was a ‘transphobe’, a ‘TERF’ and a ‘slut’. They raped two more lesbians from the LGBT Society before they left university.

This was the testimony I shared with Caroline Lowbridge, a journalist, for the recent BBC article titled ‘We’re being pressured into sex by some trans women.’ The article, carefully written by Lowbridge, was the first mainstream UK article to investigate the ‘cotton ceiling’ – where lesbians are manipulated, coerced and, in some cases, forced into sexual relationships with transwomen. The term ‘cotton ceiling’ itself refers to the lesbian’s underwear, which is deemed by some transwomen as their equivalent of the ‘glass ceiling’ – the final barrier to achieving ‘full validation’. I shared my story last year, the first time I had ever shared this experience in full.

I initially shared my testimony anonymously – in the article I was given the name ‘Chloe’ – as despite being the victim of this assault, I feared the backlash that sharing this story would bring me. And I was unfortunately right to do so. Within hours of being published, the BBC article had been attacked by large online Twitter accounts with Lowbridge herself being forced off of social media due to online harassment.

The article was criticised for everything and anything – for using an online survey from Get the L Out deemed ‘too small’ to be representative (despite lesbian activist Angela Wilde, who carried out the survey, never trying to claim it was supposed to be representative), to only using anonymous sources, to carrying quotes from porn actress Lily Cade. Within days, a letter condemning the BBC for the article had been signed by 16,000 individuals including teachers, journalists and even politicians.

As one of the lesbians quoted in this article, this backlash has hurt. Deeply. In the time of #MeToo, you want as a woman to feel that your experiences of male violence (because, let’s remember, this is male violence against women) that you will be listened to. Instead, myself and fellow victims have been met with choruses of ‘anti-trans’, ‘TERF’, ‘transphobe’. One particular Twitter individual called our experiences ‘anonymous made-up stories’.

In the days that followed, the hashtags that trended across Twitter, rather than standing with the lesbian victims quoted, were instead ‘LWithTheT’ and ‘CisWithTheT’. Big mainstream LGBT individuals, including actor Mae Martin and comedian Rosie Jones, have also publicly attacked the article, deciding to stand again not with the victims, but with the transwomen accused of sexual violence. Even so-called feminists have sided against the women who have spoken out. Dr Finn Mackay, who calls themself a ‘Radical Feminist’, tweeted ‘there are rapey creeps in our community unfortunately. I just don’t think it’s going to help us to address it’, a view no different, as many other feminists highlighted, than attitudes previously taken towards abuse within institutions like the Catholic Church. Lesbians be quiet, was Mackay’s message, suffer in silence.

But we cannot ask lesbians to suffer in silence. And I have waived my anonymity for this exact reason. If so-called progressives want to stand with perpetuators of sexual violence, and side against the lesbian victims of this abuse, then I want them to know exactly who they are choosing to dismiss. We are not made-up. We are not ‘TERFs’ or ‘anti-trans’. We are simply lesbians. We are not ‘transphobic’ because we are not attracted to males. We are not hateful because we are female homosexuals. We do not owe males access to our bodies, and we have the right to speak out about the violence we are subject to by those who refuse to take ‘no’ for an answer.

As much as the LGBT(QIA+) community may wish to ignore this, lesbians are being targeted by some (note the word ‘some’) transwomen who demand sexual access to our bodies. The transwoman who assaulted me did so knowing I was a lesbian, a female homosexual, and entirely uninterested in males. The LGBT Society was one dominated by bisexual women, women who may have been more interested in dating someone with intact male genitalia, and yet only lesbians were pursued by this person. This can be attributed only to our sexualities. By ignoring this, and denying the experience of lesbians across the wider LGBT community, the LGBT does itself a disservice, as it opens itself up to accusations of complicity, and excludes lesbians. I couldn’t access my university LGBT Society following my assault, I couldn’t face the perpetrator. Staying silent merely protects abusers, and the LGBT community should know better.

I am incredibly grateful to Caroline Lowbridge, and the BBC for this article. I am grateful also to the thousands of people who have stood in defence of myself and other victims. But, it’s not enough to listen to lesbian victims of abuse. We need help protecting our right to bodily autonomy, and our right to our identity. We need help preserving the word ‘lesbian’ for female homosexuals. We need help holding onto our few remaining lesbian-only spaces, where we can gather in lesbian sisterhood and offer each other the support we are not getting from the wider LGBT community. We need help demanding justice for lesbians who face violence for no more than their innate sexuality. And finally we need help protecting young lesbians everywhere from an LGBT community that would rather see them silenced than stand up to the male perpetrators of assault. Lesbians deserve better.

lesbianandgaynews.com/2021/11/as-one-of-the-lesbians-quoted-in-this-article-this-backlash-has-hurt-deeply-kat-howard-reflects-on-her-bbc-interview-on-the-cotton-ceiling/

OP posts:
334bu · 10/11/2021 23:40

Brave woman.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 11/11/2021 00:17

Courage calls to courage Thanks

TheHoneyBadger · 11/11/2021 15:13

Well said.

Sophoclesthefox · 11/11/2021 17:47

She’s very brave. I’ve been shocked by the amount of people who would usually be up in arms over accusing women who’ve been sexually assaulted and raped of lying, doing exactly that to these women.

This isn’t progress, or inclusion, or any other lovely buzzword. I feel so badly for the way these women have been treated. Well done on speaking out, Chloe. We believe you.

hoodathunkit · 15/11/2021 11:48

When I was much younger I had similar experiences to some of the women in the BBC article. The BBC article was really important but has brought back many memories and left me feeling angry and distressed.

I also had a girlfriend who described being pressurised and guilt tripped into sex on more than one occasion by a much older prominent trans activist. My girlfriend was an older teen when she descibed this to me.

This same activist had pissed me off by attempting multiple times to interest me in sexual activity via a weird "poor me, nobody wants to have sex with me" guilt tripping strategy, which was unsuccessful. I found it tiring and annoying and I tried to avoid this person as much as I could. They never attempted to force me physically and I would not classify their seduction strategy with me as abusive, exhausting and infuriating yes, but abusive? Probably not.

I am not going to name the trans activist concerned because a) it would be very outing and b) the abuses (which were serious) were described by my ex and not experienced directly by me. My ex seemed genuinely distressed by her experiences and I believed her then and still believe her now (although we are no longer in touch and have not been for many years).

I believe that there will be a "me too" day of reckoning for one particular trans activist.

The other reason that I am not going to name this person is that I think that it is important for anyone who has been pressurised into sex in such a situation to contact the police rather than to post on a message board.

Enough4me · 15/11/2021 23:25

@hoodathunkit, you experienced sexual coercion and it sounds as though you were a young teen at the time. Were you under 16?

You could report the part that you experienced to the police?

hoodathunkit · 17/11/2021 11:19

@Enough4me

I was in my early 20s at the time, my girlfriend was 18 when we were together and she would be the one to go to the police if anyone did.

I am not sure whether she was a minor when the alleged abuses took place but it is possible given her age when we were together and it is something I have wondered about.

It was a situation where she told me things but became very scared and upset when I wanted to confront the alleged abuser. I had to go with what she wanted me to do, of course.

If the alleged abuser is ever the subject of a criminal trial I will of course, be prepared to stand up and describe my experiences honestly, including the experience of being told about abuses by my then GF.

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